Talk:Buffy the Vampire Slayer

NOTE: Formatting and inclusion guidelines have been moved to Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Format.

Adding to character list
A few of the characters may not yet have Wikipedia pages. If you feel adventurous, you might consider adding one yourself. &mdash; Jeff Q 04:56, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I see folks have been busy over at Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Just about every regular and recurring character now has their own Wikipedia article. I've added a few recurring characters above that already appear in this article, but people should feel free to add others to help ensure correct Wikipedia article linking. &mdash; Jeff Q 03:05, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

More compact table of contents
Currently, we have quotes from only 29 of the 156 official Buffy episodes, yet the table of contents is already a page and a half long (give or take a little, depending on which skin [page style] you're using). I've been trying to come up with a useful custom table of contents that would make it easy to jump to any particular episode without scrolling down just to find the episode name in the TOC. I've created an experimental Buffy TOC page with one idea that I'd like people to look at and comment on, using its Talk page. My major concerns are: I've also added a little color to its season headers to echo the increasing darkness of the series.
 * Compact size to minimize scrolling and wasted space before actual quote entries.
 * Making the table complete so no one adding quotes has to do anything to the table of contents.

I don't plan to add it to this quote page unless I get a feeling that it would be positively received, so let me know what you think, either way. I'd also appreciate any suggestions. -- Jeff Q 07:58, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, folks, I've had zero feedback on this issue, positive or negative. Therefore, I plan to implement the current version of this compact TOC later today. I hope that this will get people to give me some feedback. If it's more negative than positive, I'll just switch it back (being sure not to lose any quote changes made in the interim). &mdash; Jeff Q 06:32, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Funny reference to www.homestarrunner.com
Andrew: You go through the door and are confronted by Trogdor the Burninator.

Note: That was copied off www.homestarrunner.com, homestarrunner didn't copy it off buffy. 203.41.14.140 03:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your point. Are you saying that this is not an actual quote from Buffy? I have it from a fairly reliable source that this is an exact quote from "Chosen" (the final episode), during the pre-apocalyptic D&D game. I haven't personally verified it from my own partial transcriptions, as I didn't find this particular quote interesting, but if there is some question of its legitimacy, I'll look into it. Let me know if that's what you mean. &mdash; Jeff Q 05:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I believe this user was pointing out that the quote was a reference to the site, and then confirming that the site was not referencing Buffy. --OGoncho 08:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

In the series finale Chosen, Andrew said, "You go through the door and are confronted by Trogdor the Burninator." This was a reference to the website homestarrunner.com. For real. xiner 03:20, 17 February 2006

Copying and verifying quotes
I'm really glad so many people have contributed to this quote page, which was the largest one on Wikiquote, last I checked. However, we have a serious accuracy problem. I suspect that many folks copy quotes from various web sources, which I've found to be notoriously inaccurate. Many of these quotes bear only a passing resemblance to what was actually said, leave out words or entire dialog segments (without noting it with some markup, like our ": . . ." lines), or confusing two or more dialog segments.

In the past, I've meticulously reviewed new quotes to ensure accuracy, but my broader duties as a new sysop and the popularity of this page have put me really far behind in this cleanup process. I'd like to ask everyone to try to verify quotes they add by watching the episodes whenever possible to confirm them. If you can't do that, at least check with a relatively reliable source like the "Buffy vs. Angel" transcript guide. (We don't need all the stage direction that site provides, but I've found that the dialog itself is more than usually accurate. Incidentally, IMDb is an atrociously error-prone source of quotes; I recommend using it only as a starting point for new articles.) Thanks in advance to everyone for their assistance. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 09:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Collapsing witticisms
As I belatedly got around to watching Firefly (a serious competitor with Buffy as Joss Whedon's best, IMHO), I found myself wondering about something. One of many recurring entertainments of these Whedon shows is the occasional witty line that suddenly dies in the middle, as if the wit suddenly ran out. Here are Buffy and Firefly examples:


 * Buffy: Giles, it's one thing to be a Watcher and a librarian. They go together, like chicken and&hellip; guh, another chicken&hellip; or&hellip; two&hellip; chickens, or&hellip; something &mdash; you know what I'm saying!
 * from Buffy, "What's My Line?", Part I


 * Mal: Well, looks can be deceiving.
 * Jayne: Not as deceivin' as a low-down&hellip; dirty&hellip; deceiver.
 * from Firefly, "Out of Gas"


 * Jayne: Captain says you're to stay put. Doesn't want you to run afoul of his blushin' psychotic bride. She figures out who you are, she'll turn you in before you can say&hellip; "Don't turn me in, lady."
 * from Firefly, "Trash"; somehow Firefly's always come from Jayne &#9786;

I haven't seen Angel enough to provide an example, but I'd be shocked if it didn't have plenty to offer. What I'm wondering is whether Whedon-show fans have come up with a term for these collapsing witticisms, like MST3K's "Crow Syndrome" (extending suggestive quips to an extreme, only to be shouted down). The structure certainly isn't unique to Whedon's shows &mdash; Blackadder has a good measure of these &mdash; but I was hoping that there was a shorthand term among the Buffy/Angel/Firefly crowd. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 22:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Added Trash quote to Firefly quote page. Hope that's okay. ZachsMind 06:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Removal of quote
RPickman removed the following from "Life Series":
 * Jonathan: You guys! Stop touching my magic bone!

Why is that? I thought it was funny. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 17:42, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, guys, you've got me confused. RPickman explicitly removed the quote (according to the edit summary), then MosheZadka restored it, claiming it was a mistake, then Moshe re-removed it. I saw nothing on either of your talk pages or here that explains what's going on. Is there a problem with the quote? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:34, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Didn't mean to stir up such a ruckus. I originally posted the quote; removed it becasue I wasn't sure it "worked" without lengthy context description (though the humor is pretty obvious). If I'm not the only one who enjoys the quote, by all means retain it. --RPickman 19:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Keep quotes pithy
I'd like to ask contributing editors to be selective about what quotes they add to this Buffy article. Wikiquote cannot be transcription service (i.e., does not provide lengthy transcriptions of scenes, complete with extensive contexts and stage directions), for two major reasons: When adding a quote, please consider carefully these points: Thank you all for helping to keep this article focused. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) We focus on actual quotations, not scene descriptions, so any material that is too visually or aurally oriented, or requires substantial context or stage directions to understand its merit, is simply beyond the  scope of what this project can provide.
 * 2) U.S. copyright laws (which en:Wikiquote must follow) frown on substantial excerpting of material for quotations. More than a handful of quotes per episode takes us into dangerous territory, and wholesale transcription of a scene is a definite no-no. We're looking for short, pithy quotes wherever possible.
 * 1) Are the spoken words funny or dramatic on their own, or because the scene looks or sounds that way? The latter is not a good candidate for inclusion here. Consider Buffy's line, "Harmony has minions?!" (from "Real Me"), which is hilarious for fans, but not especially compelling unless you already know Harmony and are watching Buffy crack up while saying it.
 * 2) Can a long scene be boiled down to a concise quote? Transcribing entire scenes is usually a bad idea. Often, one or two lines from the scene bring out the heart of the dialog.

Why brackets for context?
Is there a reason why brackets are used to describe the context and not parentheses, which are commonly used in plays, etc.? xiner 02:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * From what I can recall of months-long discussions of formatting issues 1-2 years ago, there were two basic reasons:
 * We borrowed many of our initial formatting cues from IMDb, which uses brackets.
 * Contexts can include parenthetical statements; brackets distinguish from these.
 * There may have been others, but I don't recall off-hand. There is a basic problem that comes up infrequently because of this: what to do when a wiki link is adjacent to a bracket. Various context guidelines (e.g., always use complete sentences, with period; be parsimonious with context links) and simple wording arrangement usually avoids this problem. In the rare cases it can't be avoided (which is pretty much always the initial word in a context line), a single space or a thin-space character (&amp;thinsp;) prevents a problem. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Miscellaneous (but by no means unimportant)
So far as I can tell, Jeff Q implemented the experimental Buffy TOC page in late 2004 as well as many of the formatting rules here. I thought I should give an acknowledgement here as I've removed many of his quotes from this page. xiner 03:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You needn't credit my initial efforts, xiner, just because many of my quotes have gotten the axe in a trimming that I asked for. I did indeed start this article off with a lot of my own favorite quotes, but I'm glad to see that my initial efforts have been overshadowed by a community of enthusiatic editors. I have only three real concerns:
 * Keeping to basic Wikiquote principles of text-based pithiness and avoidance of excessive context (we are quoting words, not transcribing scenes);
 * Ensuring the quotes are accurately recorded (Wikiquote's greatest advantage over other quote sites); and
 * Keeping the page properly formatted for best visual impact.
 * I've fully expected some of my contributions to go as others' favorites are added. But I appreciate the consideration. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Moved formatting guidelines
I've just moved the formatting and inclusion guidelines that used to be at the top of this discussion page to Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Format. (I've posted a notice of this on the top, but since it's not a proper discussion posting — one of the reasons that section had to go — I expect to remove it after we've had a month or two to get used to it. The guideline link in the main article now points to the new page.) This change will allow editors to treat the guidelines as they would any policy article, and discuss the guidelines and changes on its talk page, rather than the article's, with proper talk-page signatures and timestamps. This will avoid confusing the content with the discussions, as has been the problem here.

We should probably move any guideline-related discussions to Talk:Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Format, but I wanted to give everyone a little time to notice this major change first. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Episodes whose transcripts have been perused
I thought I'd make a note for every episode whose transcript I went through. I hope others will order and find this useful.

Welcome To The Hellmouth; The Harvest; Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered; Becoming 1/2; Homecoming; Bad Girls; Two To Go; Grave; Same Time, Same Place; Help; Sleeper; Potential; First Date; Dirty Girls; Never Leave Me; Chosen — xiner 21:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I would caution folks about using transcripts as ultimate sources for quotes. I have yet to find a single site that hasn't made some errors. (For Buffy, an excellent test is "Once More, with Feeling" — most sites have numerous mistakes.) It's always a good idea to check against the episode itself whenever possible. (And I don't mean the closed-captioning. From my experience with other shows' and films' CC, I expect many Buffy fan sites are more accurate than CC transcriptions.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * One other word on a common source: IMDb. As I mention above in Copying and verifying quotes, it's atrociously error-ridden. However, it is the most official general film and TV source available. Frankly, I think IMDb links are more useful as an official source of general information than quotes, but even the quote links can provide a starting point for considering quotes to add. However, just about any serious Buffy transcription site will be more accurate, and the episodes themselves will trump the transcription sites. I encourage editors to use the most accurate source available to them for verification. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought the first two and a half seasons of Buffy are precisely captured by Buffyworld.com. Small mistakes popped up in the second half of S3 and I can't vouch for accuracy after that. xiner 05:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Punctuation (crusade against ...)
When copying quotes from any source...including closed-captioning...should consider using... um...things like periods, commas, semicolons and hyphens more often. After all, punctuation marks are often meant to deliver pauses.

Restored original custom TOC
I belatedly noticed that some editors had changed the custom table of contents so that it expanded in size by about 30%, even with many still-abbreviated titles. I have reverted it to the original custom TOC. I spent quite a bit of time picking just the right column widths and episode title abbreviations to ensure all rows were single lines for most modern displays and browsers (and a minimum of double-line rows for low-resolution displays) while still providing titles that are sufficiently distinct to allow readers to determine which ep is which. I did this for the following reasons: Putting full wording of each title into the TOC will sometimes ease (2), but will not help (1) or (3) and will cause of a greatly expanded TOC and a loss of uniformity and elegance. I invite discussion of which our current readers feel is better, or if any other alternatives come to mind. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The whole reason for having a custom TOC is to keep it short, preferably as close as possible to a single screen.
 * I believed we would have three kinds of readers:
 * Those who know the titles well. These readers can easily decipher even the most brief abbreviations.
 * Those who know the titles vaguely, who might have only an idea of the title they're looking for, or who have an exact title but may not understand some abbreviations. These readers will still usually find the desired titles or title keywords. When they can't, they can browser-find for the keyword or full heading.
 * Those who don't know the titles, who are just browsing, or who are looking for a particular quote without knowing the episode. The TOC is irrelevant for these readers, except as how it allows jumping to different periods in the series, for which a shorter table is better.

I believe that the slightly longer TOC is more useful. I know most of the episode titles well, but I find it really annoying to have to decipher what I'm reading. Especially if what I'm reading has no vowels and uses numbers instead of words. It may make the TOC shorter to do it the other way but it isn't like it gets absurdly long the other way either. I will refrain from switching it back until more people express their opinion, but I feel that it would be more useful to the majority of people if the episode titles were easier to read at a glance. 66.62.91.130 20:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your opinion, 66.62.91.130. I acknowledge that, as a long-time WQ editor, I can have an overbearing influence on articles. I hope that others will chime in on this issue so we can really find out what our readers prefer, whether it be the compact one, a longer but clearer one, or even something else entirely. Your opinions count, folks! ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the current TOC, with sometimes-confusing abbreviations. I can still rely on the season number and approximately when the episode I'm after takes place in this season. As a reader, I find myself more likely to know these informations rather than a precise episode title if I'm looking for one in particular. I personnally think the problem with confusing titles is when the reader uses a screen reader or a non-video or non-standard video browser. Another way to achieve a TOC displayed on one modern screen and still using correct episode titles might be to heavily lower font size. I think it would be okay as most readers only need to see episodes titles in different cells, not to actually be able to easily read them. Thelvin 22:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Transclusion
To try and help sort out the horrendous length of this article, I've moved season one out to a new one (Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 1) and transcluded into this article. The custom contents still work, or seem to. If this is successful, maybe we could do the same with other seasons, and try and get the actual article itself close to the 30-odd kilobyte suggested length. -- Supermorff 20:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Having had no objections so far, I've moved season 2 to Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 2 and transcluded. It's clear that each season separately is going to be considerably longer than 32 kilobytes, but I still think it's worth it. -- Supermorff 15:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 3 check. -- Supermorff 21:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 4 done. Does anyone know if it's okay to transclude pages that themselves have transcluded pages? Say, for the abnormally long season 2 and 3, we split them up separately into a, b and c and transcluded? Would they appear correctly on this page? -- Supermorff 14:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd hold off on the nested transclusions. These articles need some serious trimming, anyway, as they probably go beyond the 3-8 quote guideline we've been discussing as a pass at avoiding reasonable copyvio complaints. By the way, thanks for working on this! I should have mentioned this earlier. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks. Appreciation is always... uh, appreciated. So, yeah, the nested transclusion thing was just an idea. After posting I pretty quickly decided it'd be more hassle than it was worth. -- Supermorff 15:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 5 is also done. -- Supermorff 16:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 6 is done. -- Supermorff 22:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

All finished with Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Season 7. -- Supermorff 12:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Calling all Whedonverse Wikiquote veterans
I've been soldiering on (pretty much solo) trying to piece together a functional wikiquote for the Season Eight comic series, but I've only very basic command of the programming language, and am having trouble with correctly formatting the page and coding the links in the same manner as they are in the TV series' respective page. If anyone on here can help rectify this, I'd appreciate it, as I think that, as the series is canon and part of the same storyline,the pages for it deserve more than I can achieve alone.

Radicaladz 17:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have time at the moment to help much with this, but I'd like to make two points. First, if you want help on an article, you should give its title with a link. I assume you're talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight. Second, this naming doesn't quite follow any pattern I've seen either here or at Wikipedia. The latter seems to have a lot of naming and formatting problems surrounding the various comics, so I don't have an immediate recommendation on how to define this particular series, except that the comic series should not be presented as if it's season 8 of the TV series, because it isn't. It may very well be considered a "season 8 of the Buffy saga" by Joss Whedon, but that's information that should be in the intro paragraph (lead section) of the article. It may be necessary to review the entire set of Buffy article titles here (and at WP as well) to avoid confusion. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Right. Duly noted. My apologies. I'm allowed one blond moment a month; government says so.

Radicaladz 13:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * But "Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight" is the book's actual title.81.96.167.246 21:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation?
Would anyone object to a disambiguation page for Buffyverse pages? I want to link here from some of the Buffy/Angel characters on Wikipedia, and, since some characters appear in more than one series, linking to a disambiguation page would be easier than having four links to Wikiquote. If there's some policy not to have it or something, that's fine, just thought I'd ask first. 86.144.29.58 22:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Primeval

 * Could anyone with the Season 4 DVDs please do their best to transcribe the Sumerian Uber-Buffy speaks. I tried looking for it, but only found "UBER-BUFFY: Speaks Sumerian" Thanks

--Cokeandpoprocks 18:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

More problems with accuracy of quotes
Many of the recently added quotes (as of Sept. 18, 2008) are seriously flawed - not only in accuracy but containing misspellings and inappropriate capitalization. I cannot overemphasize the importance of drawing on reliable online sources of show transcripts(such as BuffyWorld.com and buffy-vs-angel.com), as well as the actual episodes on DVD. Lately, it seems some people may be trying to reconstruct quotes from memory, and failing.