Talk:David Ben-Gurion

Moshe Dayan quote
Why is a quote from Moshe Dayan listed on the page for quotes from David Ben Gurion? Kamandi 19:07 15 August 2006

Deletions
Quotes which may show David Ben-Gurion in a negative light should not be deleted simply under the assumption that they are false. In particular, the "We must use terrorism..." line is taken from Michael Ben-Zohar's 1978 book, Ben-Gurion: A Biography and sourced there from Ben-Gurion's own memoirs.


 * Which page of which edition? I cannot find it. Did you read the book yourself, or are you quoting one of the many works which give this quote without a verifiable source?RolandR 00:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I will keep deleting the quotes until some proof will be given that they are real and not another hoax by Anti-Zionist. The proof is really simple either reliable source should be given(marcists.de and zmag is not one of them) like major news agency that used this quote or exactly on which page of the book the quote appear.


 * As a source is given I will reinsert them. // Liftarn

The quote "We must use terror, assassination . . ." is false. It does not appear in the source cited (Michael Ben-Zohar's biography of B-G), but only in secondary sources which purport to quote it from there. It does not appear in the Koenig Report either. There are plenty of revealing and outrageous quotes by Ben-Gurion, and other Zionist leaders. We don't need to add false, and easily disproved ones; and doing so will only serve to discredit the genuine quotes too. RolandR 23:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, until we find a better source it makes sense to either not include it or (as it's done in other articles) put it under an "Attributed" heading. // Liftarn

I deleted this quote: Referring to Palestinian refugees: "We must do everything in our power to ensure that they never return." Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938) as quoted in Feuerlicht, Roberta, 1983. As Palestinian refugees did not exist in 1938, the quote is either fabricated or mis-sourced. Drmikeh49 (talk) 03:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no question as to whether a reaction is necessary or not...
Chomsky himself admitting the B-G never said or write this apparently its distored quote by Machnes http://chomskywatch.blogspot.com/2004/11/chomsky-and-ben-gurion-as-is-noted-in.html

"I think that today there is no question whether or not to respond. But for the response to be effective, it must come in the right time and the right place and take the form of a strong punishment. Blowing up a house is not enough. Blowing up a house of innocent people is certainly not enough! The response must be strong and harsh because it must create the [right] impression, must punish [the perpetrators of violence] and must serve as a warning. If our responses are not impressive—they will create the opposite impression. These matters necessitate the utmost precision—in terms of time, place, and whom and what to hit ... If we operate against, say, a specific family in a known place, a known village [i.e., identified perpetrators of violence], then there should be no mercy! But only a direct blow and no touching of innocent people! We have already reached a position that necessitates a strong response. Today one should not even avoid hitting women and children. For otherwise, the response cannot be effective." http://www.meforum.org/article/466


 * What's the situation with this quote? I noticed that it's still in Ben-Gurion's entry, and it's seemingly backed up by six references, though if you look at the references, they basically are all the same reference--Chomsky's book. So I took out the redundant ones. One reference, though, doesn't cite where it's from, and I did leave that in, but it's not a reliable source. I think the quote should be taken out entirely, as even Chomsky says Ben-Gurion didn't write it.

Disputed quotations
Sources are cited for the disputed quotations, which does not justify deleting them. I will check the sources: if they stand up the quotes, then they go in as sourced; if not, they come out. In the meantime, please try to avoid edit-warring over this page. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 13:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, first results: the quote in which Ben-Gurion states that the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are for them to set checks out, but it had been taken out of context. I've made the quote bigger, which makes it clear that Ben-Gurion was compromising but saying that he still had a larger vision. As to the second one, the only citation was in Noam Chomsky's "The Fateful Triangle". I had a look at the cite, which is on page 161 of the 1983 first edition, and the list of countries is not in quotation marks. Therefore this is not a quotation at all, and I have deleted it. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 14:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Quote from Jewish paradox
As far as I remember the quote included "they think".But I read the book 5 years ago .Does any  one have a scan of the book to show   us the real quote.Until such scan will be provided i will put this quote in disputed section.

--85.181.127.142 10:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a copy of the book and can photograph the page. Where do I load it to?
 * Wikimedia commons.I think

The Wikipedia article for Nahum Goldmann has a link to an online copy of the French version of The Jewish Paradox. (http://archive.org/details/LeParadoxeJuif--ConversationsEnFrancaisAvecLeonAbramowicz)

If I run the appropriate section through "Google translate", it does not contain the "they think" part.

If I go to Books.Google.com and search for the appropriate phrase in the English version, the "they think" part is not there.

But I believe the original book was in French and I am not French, nor do I have complete confidence in Google translate; so I cannot be certain that this part (they think) is implied in the original context or not. When reading the entire quote (in English or the "translated" French version), I get the impression that Ben-Gurion was referring to the Arab perception of events.

Interesting Quote
"In Jerusalem, the United Nations (a truly United Nations) will build a Shrine of the Prophets to serve the federated union of all continents; this will be the seat of the Supreme Court of Mankind, to settle all controversies among the federated continents, as prophesied by Isaiah. Higher education will be the right of every person in the world. A pill to prevent pregnancy will slow down the explosive natural increase in China and India, And by 1987, the average life-span of man will reach 100 years."

Source (Jewish Telegraphic Agency) http://www.jta.org/1962/01/04/archive/ben-gurion-foresees-gradual-democratization-of-the-soviet-union

Can we post this? Or is this too controversial and be policed from wikiquote?

Pounamuknight (talk) 05:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place"

I'm not sure how to fix this quote. But read this exposition on it by Benny Morris: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2011/07/response_to_efraim_karsh.html


 * In my work I initially also quoted from Ben-Gurion's letter to his son Amos from October 1937. Later I stopped referring to it altogether -- not because of Karsh's criticism (he has been harping on my "misquotation" of it for over a decade now), but because the letter is problematic (as Karsh, of course, knows but fails to inform his readers).  Karsh accompanied his piece last Sunday with a photocopy of pages from one of my books.  He would have done better, if honesty was what he aimed at, to have presented his readers with a photocopy of the relevant page in Ben-Gurion's letter (as I did in the Israeli journal Alpayim years ago, when I first rebutted Karsh's charges in this connection.  Karsh throughout his pieces in English attacking me exploits his audiences' ignorance of the original Hebrew texts.).


 * The problem is that the handwritten page by Ben-Gurion sports a crossed-out line, which leaves the text saying starkly: "We must expel Arabs and take their places." But if one deciphers what is written in the crossed-out section (as was done by experts in the IDF Archive, where it is deposited), one emerges with the full sentence running: "We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs ..."


 * The question then is what Ben-Gurion intended to write -- and who crossed out the lines. If it was Ben-Gurion himself, and with aforethought (but Ben-Gurion was famous for almost never correcting his handrwritten texts), then the sentence must read: "We must expel Arabs ..."  But if it was someone else, with some ulterior motive, or if Ben-Gurion crossed out the words mistakenly and unintentionally, then one may conclude that Ben-Gurion had written and intended the opposite.


 * There is no way of deciphering who did the crossing out.

So is it misquote or not? We don't know! ImTheIP (talk) 21:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Non existing source for the miracles quote
I've tried to track the CBS interview for the quote "In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles".


 * In email sent to CBS news (at cbsnews.com), I was told no such interview exists.
 * However, there is a recording (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oo75OQmHAw) an interview with him on Feb 2, 1956 for CBS's show 'See It Now'. However, I couldn't find the quote in the interview.

I don't have access to Frister's book. Does it provide a more accurate reference?

77.127.24.63 20:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I've edited the page to improve this issue here: IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)