Talk:Max Planck

Matrix quote
someone wrote:

Corrected source for "matrix" quote.

I can see no good source. (see diskussion in german version) 95.222.220.207 11:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Esoteric Bias
IMHO the english version of Max PLanck quotes (unlike the german page) makes Max PLank into an esotericist, there are so many UNVERIFIED (and probably miss-translated) quotes, really worse than worthless. Slack. I feel like deleting them all 95.222.220.207 11:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Science changes one funeral at a time
I've found this quote, "Science changes one funeral at a time", commonly attributed to Max Planck on the web. Any confirmation or something?


 * This seems to be a paraphrase of one that is sourced upon the page. ~ Kalki (talk &middot; contributions) 04:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * paraphrased is NOT A QUOTE. delete it  95.222.220.207 11:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced

 * Sources should be provided before these are placed within the article.
 * please someone delete them 95.222.220.207 11:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * We may conclude that from what science teaches us, there is in nature an order independent of man's existence, a meaningful order to which nature and man are subordinate.
 * This is widely attributed to Planck on the internet, but with no known citation to a published source.


 * Experimenters are the striking force of science. The experiment is a question which science puts to nature. The measurement is the registration of nature’s answer. But before the question is put to nature, it must be formulated. Before the measurement result is used, it must be explained, i.e., the answer must be understood correctly. These two problems are obligations of the theoreticians.
 * Very few Google hits for key phrases from this, and none are contemporaneous or authoritative. ~ Ningauble 16:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I have found the second citation in an electronic edition of the Scientific Autobiography (1949) distributed by Open Road Integrated Media, Inc. Fortunately, the Google Books’ preview shows the page on which this citation is. The text there and the text you wrote slightly differ, but the meanings are the same. The Scientific Autobiography’s version follows: ‘Experimenters are the schocktroops of science. They perform the decisive experiments, carry out the all-important work of measurement. An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature’s answer. But before an experiment can be performed, it must be planned – the question to nature must be formulated before being posed. Before the result of a measurement can be used, it must be interpreted – Nature’s answer must be understood properly. These two tasks are those of theorists, who find himself always more and more dependent on the tools of abstract mathematics.’ Dropping out the second sentence, I have put it on the page.

Matter and consciousness
Dear Editors and Readers, I have removed the following citation „I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Rational: I checked this citation in its source – that is, on page 17. in the January 25, 1931 issue of the newspaper The Observer in the article entitled „Interviews with Great Scientists – VI. – Max Planck”, in the digital archive of The Guardian and Observer, and this citation has proved to be false. So, in accordance with my letters on this subject (my letter’s subject: a request regarding a Max Planck’s quote) sent to info-en@wikiquote.org (18.11.2017.), info-en-q@wikimedia.org (18.11.2017.), donate@wikimedia.org (18.11.2017.), info@wikiquote.org (21.11.2017.), and having regard to the answer from donate@wikimedia.org (20.11.2017), I decided to carry out the removal of this false citation and also its replacement with other ones. The file I attached to my letters contains a detailed reasoning.

Dear all. I took the liberty of double checking in The Observer, 25 January, 1931, p.17 (via ProQuest and the University of Sydney), and located the article "Interviews With Great Scientists. VI. - Max Planck". The interview by J. W. N. Sullivan does indeed include the said quote, verbatim, in the second column! (Copy available on request.) I therefore request that the quote be reinstated on the page. George963 au (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Dear All, I too have checked The Observer and the quote verbatim is: “Do you think that consciousness can be explained in terms of matter and its laws?” “No. I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” It is worth noting that the interviewer prefaces his interview with the remark, "‘In my interview with him Professor Planck replied to all my questions with a quite remarkable lack of hesitation. It would seem that his ideas on these subjects are now definitely formed, or else that he thinks with remarkable rapidity – probably both suppositions are true". I think the quotation "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness" should be restored to Wikiquote, and I have done so.

Dear Editors and Readers, I removed the citation „I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” and had replaced it with other one on 25.11.2017., as you can read it above in the first paragraph. Referring to the detailed reasoning I mentioned there, now I reinforce that this quote is false, therefore I request the restoration of the modifications I did in 2017. The detailed reasoning I referenced there follows.

Shortly saying this quote is false. The concern we are confronting here can be described after a Hungarian poet Attila József (see Appendix 1.) as follows: should we say the Real even in the case if it is not authentic and what is more it is false? Or rather, we had better say not the Real, but the Truth in such cases? The actual question is whether this quote, which is really a valid text, correctly and authentically echoes Planck’s true belief, or not. The answer is the not.

1. This text can be found on page 17. in the January 25, 1931 issue of the newspaper The Observer, in the section entitled „Scientific Beliefs And Others” in the article entitled „Interviews with Great Scientists – VI. – Max Planck” (see Appendix 2.).

2. This text was written not by Mr. Max Planck, but by Mr. J. W. N. Sullivan, who was the author of the The Observer’s article mentioned above.

3. It is impossible to know whether Max Planck did say this text or did not. We can be sure of that neither recording, nor official minutes was prepared, and there is no possibility to ask either Mr. Max Planck, or Mr. J. W. N. Sullivan, and it is also impossible to confront them with each other.

4. This text says just the opposite of the Max Planck’s view about the relation of matter and common or general consciousness, which is summarized in Encyclopedia Britannica as follows: „he concluded that the existence of physical laws presupposes that the ‘outside world is something independent from man, something absolute, and the quest for the laws which apply to this absolute appeared… as the most sublime scientific pursuit in life.’ ” Source: ''Max Planck – Encyclopædia Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Max-Planck''

5. The context of this text – the The Observer’s article as a whole, and especially the parts of the article which are just before and after this text – makes it clear that the consciousness mentioned here is not about a common or general consciousness, which is normally written with lower case initial letter, but first of all it means the Consciousness of a Superior Being, who has a greater life and imagines the great scheme of the world, and therefore whose Consciousness should be – and should have been – written with upper case initial letter.

6. It is also worth noting that it is obviously not realistic or not plausible that Max Planck during any interview had contradicted his view he was professing during his whole career with undiminished energy both in writing and speaking: both in his lectures and in his written works. As evidences, the Appendix contains some such Planck’s citations from authentic sources (from authentic issues of Planck’s own writings (books) and speeches) which clearly show at the same time on one hand Planck’s view, while on the other hand the fact that Planck’s view was just the same both before and after the publication date of the article in the newspaper The Observer: some citations come from before 1931, while others come from after 1931 (see Appendix 3.).

7. How can matter be a derivative from the Consciousness? What did Max Planck think about the relation of matter and Consciousness, that is, about the relation of matter and a conscious God? Fortunately, the answer can be found on your Max Planck’s page: in the tenth citation on the list, which is a part from the Max Planck’s speech „The Nature of Matter” (see Appendix 4.). According to this citation Max Planck took a stand on this question as follows: - „There is no matter as such!” Note: we should comprehend „matter” here as such thing which has the so-called „rest mass”, which is „classically” tangible, can be „taken in hands” – so, this kind of matter does not exist. - „All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.” Note: The „tangible”, but actually non-existing matter originates from certain forces. - Since the „perpetuum mobile” is impossible, „we must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Spirit. This Spirit is the matrix of all matter.” Here Planck also speaks about the necessity of presuming such a „conscious and intelligent” Spirit, which is the primary, which is the fundamental, which is the origin and source of the matter. The word „Spirit” in the English version stands for the German word „Geist” in the original German text, which denotes the Spirit in the Christian Holy Spirit in German („Heilige Geist”), and besides, it denotes for example that Spirit of God („Gottes Geist”) which was sweeping over the waters in the beginning. ''„Die Anfänge: 1, 1 Im Anfang schuf Gott Himmel und Erde;  2 die Erde aber war wüst und wirr, Finsternis lag über der Urflut und Gottes Geist schwebte über dem Wasser.” Source: Einheitsübersetzung 1980 online. http://www.bibelwerk.de/Bibel.12790.html/Einheitsuebersetzung+online.12798.html''

The detailed reasoning’s appendices

Appendix 1. About the relation of the Real and the True after a Hungarian poet Attila József (famous and well-known in Hungary)

Should we say the Real or the True? Attila József poetically explained this concern in his poem „Thomas Mann üdvözlése” („Welcome to Thomas Mann” in English). The original fragment comes and two different English translations follow it below. a)	The Hungarian original: „Te jól tudod, a költő sose lódit: az igazat mondd, ne csak a valódit, a fényt, amelytől világlik agyunk, hisz egymás nélkül sötétben vagyunk.” b)	Translated by the author, in the literal sense of words: „You know well, the poet never tells any fib, say the truth, not only the real, the light, with which our brains are light, because we are in dark without each other.” c)	Translated by Watkins, Vernon (a poetical translation from the web): „You know this well: the poet never lies. The real is not enough; through its disguise Tell us the truth which fills the mind with light Because, without each other, all is night.” Babelmatrix: Babel Web Anthology – the Multilingual Literature Portal. Attila József: Welcome to Thomas Mann (Thomas Mann üdvözlése in English). http://www.babelmatrix.org/works/hu/J%C3%B3zsef_Attila/Thomas_Mann_%C3%BCdv%C3%B6zl%C3%A9se/en/1787-Welcome_to_Thomas_Mann http://www.babelmatrix.org/works/hu-all/Watkins%2C_Vernon

Appendix 2. Parts of two sections of the interview-article „Interviews with Great Scientists – VI. – Max Planck” in the issue of january 25. 1931. of the newspaper The Observer. The full title of the interview-article: „ INTERVIEWS WITH GREAT SCIENTISTS. VI. – MAX PLANCK. THE PARADOX OF THE QUANTUM. – SPACE AND TIME. – NO MORAL PROGRESS OF MANKIND. – BELIEFS AND “PHANTASIES” ”.

a) Parts of the section „Scientific beliefs and others” i. ” Do you think that life and consciousness are the outcome of the random action of natural laws, or do you think that they form part of some great scheme? ” ” I believe that life is part of some greater life that we cannot understand… ii. ” Do you think that consciousness can be explained in terms of matter and its laws? ” ” No. I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”

b) Parts of the section „Free will and phenomena” The section „Free will and phenomena” follows the section „Scientific beliefs and others”. „ Planck suggests that…. Men must learn to regard space and time, not as objective realities to which everything must conform, but as concepts which, in this region of pheno-mena, must now be transcended. They are not objective realities, independent of consciousness, (that is, all other real things of the material universe are objective realities, independent of consciousness; inserted by the author) and perhaps none such exist. I found, however, that he does not share the belief, held by some of the younger physicists, that nature does not form a rigidly determined system. He admits that, in the present state of research, the so-called Principle of In-determinancy, which puts something like free will at the basis of phenomena, is a useful scientific tool. But he regards it merely as a temporary device, and not as a discovery concerning the ulti-mate character of the material universe.” ''Source: Interviews with great scientists. VI. – Max Planck. The paradox of the quantum. – Space and time. – No moral progress of mankind. – Beliefs and ”phantasies”. The Observer, Sunday, January 25., 1931. page 17. From the digital archive of The Guardian and Observer. How to access the Guardian and Observer digital archive. https://www.theguardian.com/info/2017/jun/26/how-to-access-guardian-and-observer-digital-archive''

Note: I have accessed the digital archive of The Guardian and Observer and the January 25 1931 issue of the newspaper The Observer in this archive legally and in normal & proper regular way.

Appendix 3. Some more citations to show Max Planck’s view

As evidences, here I serve some such Planck’s citations from authentic sources – from authentic issues of Planck’s own writings (books) and speeches – which at the same time clearly show on one hand Planck’s view, while on the other hand the fact that Planck’s view was just the same before and after the publication date of the article in the weekly newspaper The Observer: some citations come from before 1931, while others come from after 1931.

a) Citations from his speech „The worldview of the new physics” on February 18. 1929.

a. "Based on such considerations, not logical conclusions, we are forced to assume another real world behind the perceptible world, the existence of which is independent, independent of man." ''Source: A Hungarian official edition of Max Planck’s selected essays, page 85. For the Hungarian text and the identification of the book: see below. Translated by the author by means of Google Translate.'' „Ilyen megfontolások, nem pedig logikai következtetések alapján kényszerülünk arra, hogy az érzékelhető világ mögött egy másik, valóságos világot tételezzünk fel, amelynek léte önálló, az embertől független.” ''Source: Max Planck: Az új fizika világképe. 1929. február 18-án tartott előadás. A Max Planck: Válogatott tanulmányok című kötetben. Gondolat, Budapest, 1982. 85. oldal.'' b. "To these two worlds, the sensual world and the real world, a third world is added now, which has to be fairly distinguished: the world of physical science or the physical worldview. This world, unlike the previous two, is a deliberate and purposeful creation of the human spirit, and as such it is variable and subjected to certain development." ''Source: A Hungarian official edition of Max Planck’s selected essays, page 86. For the Hungarian text and the identification of the book: see below. Translated by the author by means of Google Translate.'' „Ehhez a két világhoz, az érzéki világhoz és a reális világhoz jön most a harmadik világ, amelyet ezektől meg kell jól különböztetni: a fizikai tudomány világa, vagy a fizikai világkép. Ez a világ, ellentétben az előző kettővel, az emberi szellemnek tudatos, meghatározott célt szolgáló alkotása, és mint ilyen változó, és bizonyos fejlődésnek alávetett.” ''Source: Max Planck: Az új fizika világképe. 1929. február 18-án tartott előadás. A Max Planck: Válogatott tanulmányok című kötetben. Gondolat, Budapest, 1982. 86. oldal.''

b) A citation from his speech „Positivism and real outside world” on November 12. 1930.

a. Physics "... does not have to describe experiences, but it needs to know the real world... The two cornerstones of the whole scientific physics are these two sentences: 'There is a real world outside us, which is independent of ourselves' and 'The real world can not be directly recognized'." ''Source: A Hungarian official edition of Max Planck’s selected essays, page 273. For the Hungarian text and the identification of the book: see below. Translated by the author by means of Google Translate.'' A fizikának „… nem élményeket kell leírnia, hanem a reális külvilágot kell megismernie… Az egész tudományos fizika két sarkalatos pontját e két mondat alkotja: ’Létezik a reális, tőlünk független külvilág’ és: ’A reális külvilág közvetlenül nem ismerhető meg’.” ''Source: Max Planck: Pozitivizmus és reális külvilág. 1930. november 12-én tartott előadás. A Max Planck: Válogatott tanulmányok című kötetben. Gondolat, Budapest, 1982. 273. oldal.''

c) Citations from his book „Where is science going? The Universe in the light of modern physics” published in 1932., in New York

a. … in other words, the fundamental principles and indispensable postulates of every genuinely productive science are not based on pure logic but rather on the metaphysical hypothesis — which no rules of logic can refute — that there exists an outer world which is entirely independent of ourselves.” ''Source: Where is science going? The Universe in the light of modern physics by Max Planck, Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of Berlin. Prologue by Albert Einstein. Translation and biographical note by James Murphy. Copyright, 1932 W. W. Norton & Company, Inc. 70 Fifth Avenue, New York. First Edition. Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2014. https://archive.org/details/whereissciencego00plan_0 https://archive.org/stream/whereissciencego00plan_0/whereissciencego00plan_0_djvu.txt'' b. „Of course there is the positivist theory that man is the measure of all things. … But there is another measure also, which is more important for certain problems and which is independent of the particular method and nature of the measuring intellect. This measure is identical with the thing itself. Of course it is not an immediate datum of perception. But science sets out confidently on the endeavor finally to know the thing in itself, and even though we realize that this ideal goal can never be completely reached, still we struggle on towards it untiringly. And we know that at every step of the way each effort will be richly rewarded. The history of science is at hand to confirm our faith in this truth.” ''Source: Where is science going? The Universe in the light of modern physics by Max Planck, Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of Berlin. Prologue by Albert Einstein. Translation and biographical note by James Murphy. W. W. Norton & Company, Inc. 70 Fifth Avenue, New York. First Edition. Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2014. https://archive.org/details/whereissciencego00plan_0 https://archive.org/stream/whereissciencego00plan_0/whereissciencego00plan_0_djvu.txt''

Appendix 4. A part from Max Planck’s speech „The Nature of Matter”, which was given by him in 1944. in Florence, Italy.

„Als Physiker, der sein ganzes Leben der nüchternen Wissenschaft, der Erforschung der Materie widmete, bin ich sicher von dem Verdacht frei, für einen Schwarmgeist gehalten zu werden. Und so sage ich nach meinen Erforschungen des Atoms dieses: Es gibt keine Materie an sich. Alle Materie entsteht und besteht nur durch eine Kraft, welche die Atomteilchen in Schwingung bringt und sie zum winzigsten Sonnensystem des Alls zusammenhält. Da es im ganzen Weltall aber weder eine intelligente Kraft noch eine ewige Kraft gibt—es ist der Menschheit nicht gelungen, das heißersehnte Perpetuum mobile zu erfinden—so müssen wir hinter dieser Kraft einen bewußten intelligenten Geist annehmen. Dieser Geist ist der Urgrund aller Materie.”

„As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Spirit. This Spirit is the matrix of all matter.” „Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], a 1944 speech in Florence, Italy, Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797; the German original is as quoted in The Spontaneous Healing of Belief (2008) by Gregg Braden, p. 212; Braden mistranslates intelligenten Geist as "intelligent Mind", which is an obvious tautology.”

Source: Wikiquote, Max Planck. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck

The end of my entry of 28 December 2019.


 * So basically, you are not simply asserting the general trope "You can't believe what you read in the papers," but elaborately insisting that you have an innately superior assessment of what Planck said than what actually appears in the papers. That PERHAPS could be the case, and alternate wording is mentioned in the commentary — but it is NOT the prerogative or duty of ANYONE else to accept such assessments as actually reliable, and our actual duty must be to accurately quote what is actually published — with ample potential for commentary and alternate translations of words or statements permitted. What we cannot properly do is exclude what was actually published and simply and ONLY include what something is inferred to signify by someone else, whether by rational or irrational conjectures. I believe the revisions that were made sufficiently clarified the statement, and some of the possible confusions about it. Some of the sourced statements quoted above are probably quote-worthy within the article, to the any extent they are not present already, but I believe the reversions to actual quoted material from the newspaper are more valid and clear than your arguments on why they should be abandoned. ~ ♞☤☮♌︎Kalki·⚚⚓︎⊙☳☶⚡ 22:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Quotation on the progress of a new scientific theory
I have revised the translation in the body of the text. The original translation is still visible in the right margin as a caption to a photograph. I would change it there too, if I knew how. This is my first attempt at contributing to Wikiquote/Wikipedia.
 * Please cite the actual published source of the translation. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2019 (UTC)