Talk:Menachem Begin

Menachem Begin
What is the citation for the "Our race is the master race" quote. I find it odd that it is capitalized with no references to source. Is this a vandalism? All other references are circular, unreferenced copies. A nomaly 03:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I just checked in and quickly reverted that edit as a farily obvious absurdity. I then did a Google search and did find a few sites quoting this as "Jewish" perspective or a quote of Begin, but none with a cited source or date, and this leaves me still very much inclined to believe it to be totally bogus concoction, with so little presence and less credibilty that it is probably not even worth adding as a "disputed" or misattributed quote. ~ Kalki 04:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed this bogon again. For further background info, see "Correcting A Misquotation Reputedly By Menachem Begin", Begin Center Diary, 27 May 2009. ~ Ningauble 15:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * HINT: Jimmy Carter, diary
 * http://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/07/books/keeping-the-faith.html -- "The Israeli Prime Minister is pictured as explosive, mercurial, pedantic and unreliable, a man who would commit himself to one position in private and promptly contradict it in public. ... Although Mr. Carter has harsh words for Mr. Begin, who alternately charmed and infuriated him, his account is apparently not as tough on the Israeli leader as it was originally meant to be. According to former White House officials, Mr. Carter softened his comments on Mr. Begin after Stuart E. Eizenstat, the lawyer who had been his assistant for domestic affairs, read an early draft of these memoirs and said the language was too tough."
 * What is the position of the rabbis about the jewish people in judaism? Are they superior to other people? (Just asking to have a jewish view on it)
 * what's the difference don't you believe your country is superior to any other country? AmYisroelChai (talk) 19:36, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Generally, no, that is the belief of nationalist supremacists, such as Nazis. Further, the question was not "what is the position of the Israeli government about non-Israelis"; the question was "What is the position of rabbis about jewish people in judaism?" The Talmud tells us clearly that the rabbis view the goyim (non-jews) as less than human, as animals to be servants to the jews eternally.
 * I've looked into the Carter memoirs (not diary) and added a quote about Menachem Begin from them. That Carter believed "Begin also believed that God wanted the Jews to own the land" seems supported by the parenthesized "Begin always referred to the West Bank by the two biblical names - I presume to engender the notion that this was the promised land which God Himself had given to the Jews" but I've no idea where Texe Marrs could've gotten that other stuff about "Master Race" or the quote. Master only appears 3 times in "Keeping Faith"


 * 109 "a master at circumlocution"
 * 405 "master at making insignificant editorial changes"
 * 516 "master of this technique"
 * If it was based on something other than the memoirs (or did he have another set?) it's suspicious that Texe Marrs would not cite supporting documents for the 'Master Race' allegation. ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Admission 1967 Invasion of Egypt Was "Decision" Not Defense Against Invasion by Egypt
I did a search in the New York times site and didn't find this quote "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him"--79.179.155.216 14:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The editor above who removed this quote in 2008 was likely acting in good faith, because it is bizarrely difficult to make the article pop up in a Google search. This page is at the top of Google results for the quote; the NYT article is buried several pages down, far lower in the results than one would reasonably expect the primary source to appear. I eventually found it by limiting the search to August 1982.  The quote is accurate, and the NYT article is real, published on August 21, 1982.  See http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/21/world/excerpts-from-begin-speech-at-national-defense-college.html


 * I'll put the quote back. This is a hopeless task, of course, but so be it. If the NYT original is taken down, I can upload it again.

Strange
I find it really strange that the page on Begin seems to be deleted? Has Begin really said _nothing_ worth noting???? I dont find that believeable. He lived through some of the most "uinteresting" times in human history. I have to ask people here not to delete the entire page if I decide to contribute by creating some lines of biografical data.

"Master race" quote
While the alleged "Master race" quote is improbable, it is surprising that it is not cited here, even as an allegedly "fabricated quote." The evidence that it is fabricated must be presented.


 * "Our race is the Master Race. we are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects.... Other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves"

This is from the Begin Center: WEDNESDAY, MAY 27, 2009

Correcting A Misquotation Reputedly By Menachem Begin This past week, the Begin Center received this request for information:

Can you please help me with this?

This quote

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

is attributed to Begin and it is all over the web.

Do you know where it came from?

This was our reply:

Dear S_____,

I gave your request to our director of information and content and after some thorough research, I have the following for you:

First of all, Mr. Begin never said those words and there is no factual basis for that quote. When we searched for the quote, we found that it looped back to the same text by Texe Marrs, who does not say that he is quoting Begin.

Further research at this site showed that the quote was attributed to "Amnon Kapeliouk's article "Begin and the Beasts" (New Statesman, June 25, 1982) which was infamous for having misrepresented some remarks Menachem Begin said in a speech to the Knesset, and there are legitimate sources all over the net that make reference to that incident.

However, the misrepresented quote is not the one cited ("Our race is the Master Race", etc.), but another one entirely (see below). Clearly, someone invented the "Master Race" quote and then tacked on Amnon Kapeliouk as the source, to give it credibility. However, even the REAL (and far less offensive) quote has now been proven to have been misrepresented by Kapeliouk.

The REAL story involving Kapeliouk's article is provided by a media-watch group called CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America), which regularly debunks bogus news reports and misquotes.

Here:

...Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute the derogation of Palestinians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:

Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts, "New Statesman, June 25, 1982

Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:

For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanize the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs

However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was referring not to "the Palestinians" in a general sense but very specifically, he was referring to terrorists who target children within Israel...Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception...

I hope that helps.

Moreover, we will be conferring with others in Israel and abroad to attempt to verify that the no one has ever heard or seen this quote and whether it is authentic. At present, we understand that there is no reliable source and until proven otherwise, which we doubt can be done based on our archival mateiral and personal familiarity with Mr. Begin, we reject the veracity of the words supposedly either spoken or conveyed. The quotation is bogus.


 * Is this is a joke? CAMERA is a propaganda source, and literally nothing else.
 * I've restored the above comment which was removed in special:diff/2086051 please do not do that again. ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:39, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This appears on note 6 of page 208 of the 2005 book Oil Crisis under the chapter "Future Production - Crisis and Beyond", would be interested in seeing how far back we can trace it. It doesn't actually mention who it is being attributed to though, you need to go back to page 183's 2nd paragraph which includes: "a Zionist activist of Polish origins, by the name of Menachem Begin, had established a terrorist group in Palestine in 1942 aiming to oust the British" and there is a small 6 after the comma after Begin. ScratchMarshall (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Begin and the Beasts in New Statesman
Is anyone able to get a full copy of this 25 June 1982 article by Amnon Kapeliouk? It is discussed in https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8359.5%3Bwap2 as the possible earliest source of the quote.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/zaq9j/menachem_begin_and_the_our_race_is_the_master/ claimed the article was on a single page and they took this photograph of the microfilm but I find it difficult to read and am hoping to acquire something more legible. ScratchMarshall (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

backtracing the "divine gods" quote

 * 17 December 2003 archive https://web.archive.org/web/20031217191553/http://texemarrs.com/112003/jewish_master_race.htm
 * 5 December 2003 archive https://web.archive.org/web/20031205052353/http://www.rense.com/general45/master.htm

Although rense.com was archived before texemarrs, you can see from the URL that texemarrs appears to have published this "112003", which appears supported by rense's attribution "By Texe Marrs 11-25-3". I think we can reasonably assume that Texe Marrs first uploaded this on 25 November 2003, and that archive.org grabbed it from there and rense in the following month.

What I'm trying to figure out is two things:
 * if we can trace this quote back further than November 25th
 * if we can figure out who first clearly attributed this to Menachem Begin, as TexeMarrs.Com merely insinuated it whereas we can see by 2005 in 183 and 208 of Oil Crisis that Colin John Campbell as making this association. Did CJC make it first, or did someone else make that association prior to him and he possibly just ran with it without checking up on it first?

There are 8 sentences...
 * 1) Our race is the Master Race.
 * 2) We are divine gods on this planet.
 * 3) We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects.
 * 4) In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best.
 * 5) Other races are considered as human excrement.
 * 6) Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races.
 * 7) Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron.
 * 8) The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.

Until I can find earlier evidence of them, evidence so far supports that Texe Marrs was the 1st to say them and not anybody else. ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC) ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC)