Talk:Sun Myung Moon

Others
I created the "Others" section. I am confident that those quotes can be sourced, so if any one is willing to track down the sources of those quotes then that'd be nice. Jamesters 21:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I decided to remove them.  There are so many sourced quotes, just follow any of the links given with the others and you can find many more.  How about the Way of God's Will? I'm sure you can find sourced quotes that make these same points. Generally it is not WP policy to give unsourced information on a living person anyway.  Thanks.  Steve Dufour 12:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC) Here are the quotes I cut out:

Unsourced

 * "Communism is trying to take the world by force. But God will take the world by love."


 * "Every religious pioneer, including Jesus Christ, was persecuted by his contemporaries. But once people understand me, their turn can be dramatic like Saint Paul's."


 * "The greatest barrier to peace in our world today is greed and selfishness in the human heart. Individual greed opens the way to national greed. This leads to divisiveness and conflict among people and nations. Tragically, this has caused so much bloodshed and needless human suffering."


 * "There are many crooked lines and one straight line. Which is the line of truth? Why the straight line? Truth is always the shortest distance between two points. "


 * "Throughout history no one has suffered more than God. He has suffered because his own children fell away from him. Ever since the Fall, God has been working tirelessly for the restoration of mankind. People do not know this brokenhearted aspect of God."


 * "The spiritual world is connected with the physical world. The common factor connecting all things is true love."

...

Hmmm, I see to remember Steve saying, "If you add them with cites no one will remove them." Steve Dufour 06:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

But several were. About them:

The "dung eating dogs" quote is from a page dealing solely with a Moon speech. It gives no indication that he did not say this thus it shoud stay.


 * This was a title added by the editors. The whole quote is reprinted on the WP article on Rev. Moon.Steve Dufour 15:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Jesus: Reverend Sun Myung Moon! Thou art the Second Coming who inaugurated the Completed Testament Age!" I have found the UC source for thus it should remain

The "Bring in the flocks", quoted by a UC publication here I don't see where Moon didn't say it?

The last two you might object that it doesn't specifically state that Moon said this but these are UC publications and thus Moon sanctioned statements.


 * But still they are not quotes by him.Steve Dufour 15:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Additionally I think that on a page as long as this it is more helpful for reseachers if you have some kind of table of contents and the divisions I made do not seem to me to be unwarranted. 4.246.206.62 08:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what the policy here in Wikiquotes on this is. I left a notice for the administrators. Steve Dufour 15:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. If people are really researchers they will want to visit the original sources.

Okay Steve, let's go through you objections.

1) You said tht labeling quotes "favorable" "neutral" and "controversal" is wildly POV) Huh? In what possible way? 2) About this subtitle "The World including Jesus himself to bow down before Moon" you also claim is "wildly POV". Um, these are comments that Moon and the UC have themselves stated.  There was no misinterpreting it. 3) About the link on Moon's quotes on the immaculate conception you said, not an exact quote. This is true. I linked to the page because there was so much on it, however I will try to get an exact quote. 4) About the "Bring in the flocks" quote and the "Moon! Thou art the Second Coming" quotes you said "not quotes by him at all". However previously I wrote "you might object that it doesn't specifically state that Moon said this but these are UC publications and thus Moon sanctioned statements."  Am I right? 5) About my subtitle about Moon's sex related comments being bizarre you wrote that they are "bizzare" is wildly POV. I wouldn't say that they are "wildly" POV and I do think that they are bizarre, however if you want to tone that down that's fine by me. 6) About the "dung eating dogs" quote you said, not a quote by him, the original quote is on the WP article Sun Myung Moon I provided a link to a UC page that contains a Moon speech, nothing else. There is no indication that he did not say this and in fact he says very nearly the same thin in the text that follows.  It should stay.  7) About the baseball bat quotes you say These are jokes, not really about violence. That's your interpretation. And are these Moon's comments? Then they should remain on a page of Moon quotes. 8) About the influencing politicians subtitle you said people can read the quotes without someone telling them what they are about This is merely descriptive of the following in keeping with my feeling that these comments are easier for reseachers categorized.

Again, you previously stated ''Dividing the "controversal" from the "uncontroversal" might be harder than it sounds. But as far as I know no one has removed any quotes from the wikiquote page.'' To which I replied "I'm not refering to the quotes already there which a cursory reading of which all sound favorable to Moon, I mean the addition of the controversial ones (such as those I listed above)" and then you said If you add them with cites no one will remove them Thus I am reverting and including a few more quotes.

By the way, about the removing of the subtitles on the quotes page. Until you get an answer I don't see why they can't remain. 4.246.204.205 18:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Truthfully, it's starting to look like censorship, besides that I don't want to spend more time on it. You can consider me done after this. Happy holidays.


 * I did not remove anything that Rev. Moon himself had said, half of which were added by critics BTW. All I did was remove comments by other people. I will continue to do so unless the admins here say that it is ok to have something else besides quotes by the person in a collection of quotations. Wishing you the best in this holiday season as well.  You are much more reasonable and polite than many of Rev. Moon's critics. Steve Dufour 03:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, quotes about a person are as legitimate in WQ as quotes by a person. See Templates/People.  121a0012 04:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't know that. Sounds fair enough. Steve Dufour 05:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Just checking in. Seems to me Steve that 121a0012 has okayed the "bring in the flocks" quote which you objected to because it is not a direct quote. But it is about him. Here it is on a UC site. What do ya say? 4.246.202.235 00:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you start a section of "Quotes about him" then including that one is fine. Steve Dufour 07:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC) I went ahead and did this.


 * sigh* I AM done doggoneit! On the "bring in the flocks" quote I listed the original source (which the UC page in the link refers to) rather than just leave it as "court case in Belgium" which is misleading.  I also added other quotes and added spaces as per your arrangement between the * and the quote, which was not uniform throughout. 4.246.204.25 17:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup?
I'm sorry but I don't see what is wrong with the article. Unless someone can help by pointing out what needs to be changed I will remove the tag again. Steve Dufour 04:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me count the ways....
 * Too much space between quotations.
 * Incorrect section headings.
 * Extraneous quotation marks around every quotation.
 * Extraneous "Source:" before every citation.
 * Internal links not used for all dates, to enable MediaWiki's date-style preference feature.
 * Those are just the ones that were obvious to me at first glance. 121a0012 05:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am new here on WQ. I will work on those things.  Steve Dufour 06:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a note. I still think that this page would benefit by a division of the quotes into favorable or neutral and controversial or some other division, perhaps by subject. As it is you have so many quotes that if someone is looking for a certain one it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. 4.246.203.11 01:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * But in order to decide what the quote is about, or if it is controversial, you would have to use your own POV. Some people might think the first quote, for instance, is blasphemous.  Others might think it is really cool. Or some might find it uninteresting.  I'm going to go ahead and remove some of the quotes that I myself added to the list in order to shorten it a bit. (Because of my promise I will not remove quotes added by others, but how many times do we need to read that Jesus failed or that we must learn to speak Korean?) BTW all of the quotes on the page are things Rev. Moon himself said and which were posted by church members on official or unofficial church websites, so in general I would think that they would be favorable. Steve Dufour 05:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Undated quotes
Since this seems to be an issue, I went ahead and removed the undated quotes. Some of them did not have an online source. There are hundreds, or thousands, of sourced exactly dated quotes online. Just follow any of the links now used as cites. Steve Dufour 01:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am going to remove the second batch of undated quotes, rather than have them at the end in a sort of second-class status. Steve Dufour 20:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I reverted those removals, and will review this page further, to the extent I have the time within a few days. Those quotes were from published and dated documents. There is no need for every statement made by Mr. Moon to be dated to its time of utterance. ~ Kalki 21:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * How long do you think the page should be? There are thousands of pages of speeches by Rev. Moon that are recorded on the Internet. Steve Dufour 22:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no set opinion of how large any page should be, and have no strong inclinations to add quotes either by or about Moon, but am generally inclined to preserve genuine quotes that have been added by others to most pages unless there are clear reasons to remove them. I believe that any disputes about removals should generally be handled by consensus, if there are not clear violations of Wikiquote or Wikimedia policies impelling their removal. I have not yet fully examined the material that has recently been added or removed here, but will attempt to do so within the next day or so. ~ Kalki 00:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove undated quotes - I agree with on this one - the Undated quotes should be removed.  Dark journey 02:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC).


 * I feel the page should be of a length that is readable in one sitting. As I said, readers can follow the links and find as much material as they like. I also think that the quotes themselves should be interesting and include some of Rev Moon's most famous quotes, such as "I will conquer and subjugate the world." I don't care about the dating. I was just following Dark Journey's lead on that as a way to reduce the size of the list. (I'm a Unification Church member, BTW.) Steve Dufour 07:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This hasn't been a top priority issue for me, and I still haven't attended to the article, but I am rather perplexed as to why these quotes are being labeled "undated" at all. This is not a standard heading at wikiquote and there are clearly dates of publication for ALL of them. Though knowing the precise date of public speeches is a good thing, there actually are no wikiquote requirements which demand showing a precise date of creation or enunciation for every published statement of a person — in most articles such quotes are simply included in chronological order in regard to their date of publication in the "Sourced" section, followed by chronological arrangement of sections for more extensively quoted works. There are many articles that have been departing from this norm, for various reasons, and I believe they should be reduced, and intend to cleanup at least a couple this week. ~ Kalki 08:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I will try removing the undated section again; not, for me, because they are undated but because the page has enough quotes without them and any interested reader can find an almost unlimited supply with only a mouse-click. Steve Dufour 07:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I restored these quotes again, because a quick scanning of them and of the rest of the article reveals them to be plainly indicative of various extreme forms of arrogance, duplicity and peculiar conceits, as opposed to the generally hagiographic tone of the rest of the page. ~ Kalki 08:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now moved these into a proper chronological order, done some minor format cleanup, and added one quote by Orrin Hatch and one by Moon regarding the tax fraud and conspiracy charges which were brought against him. ~ Kalki 11:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have once again restored these quotes after the the concerted effort to remove them through the use of one false or facetious reason or another; this time they were removed because they weren't online. Immediate online access is NOT, and NEVER HAS BEEN a criterion for "verifiability" — though these are certainly convenient and helpful, the only absolute requirement for sourced quotes is that credible publication citations which can be checked are provided. ~ Kalki 16:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Trimming
I removed these two, which I think are somewhat less interesting than the others and seem to cover material which is already mentioned by other quotes:


 * Through True Love our family shall accomplish the True Family of the Filial Child, the Loyal Subject, the Saint and the Holy Child of the Cheon Il Guk (God's Kingdom on earth.)
 * Church Motto, 2003-01-01


 * Then who is the Messiah, and what is he like? He is the owner and substantiation of faith, hope, and love not only for the individual but also for the family, tribe, society, nation, world, and cosmos.
 * The Messiah and True Parents 2004-01-27

If you disagee please put them back. Steve Dufour 14:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Divine Principle quote
I moved this back to the about section. The Divine Principle is based on Rev. Moon's teachings but it is not clear if the exact words were his. On the other hand the quote is about him, and is probably the most famous quote about him. It is often quoted by church critics as well as members. Steve Dufour 01:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)