User talk:Ningauble/Archive 12

This is an archive of past discussions on : from Jan–Jun 2014. Do not edit this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please use the |current talk page.

Category Edits to Joshua Casteel
Greetings, you removed four theme categories from Joshua Casteel. Can you please point me to some Wikiquote policy guidance indicating that theme categories should not be applied to pages named after individuals even when quotes on the page deal with the subject matter of a particular theme category? It would seem to me helpful to readers and appropriate to populate theme categories with pages which contain quotes pertaining to the subject matter of the theme even though the category is not descriptive of the person to whom the quote is attributed. --Mox La Push (talk) 08:14, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The fundamental categories at Wikiquote are organized by the type of article subject, e.g, People, Themes, etc. This is fundamental. What you are envisioning is more like an index of quotes about a topic. Adding software to support indexing in addition categorizing has been discussed at Wikipedia occasionally, but there has never been much support for the idea (in part, because the search engine already provides a comprehensive word index). ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You have not provided any policy references pointing to a prohibition on mixing person and theme categories. I have also reviewed Wikiquote's Policies and Guidelines and your edit seems to be the expression of personal preference not an agreed upon policy. Further, in the absence of the indexing you mention it just makes sense to use categories eclectically so that users can more readily find the quotes they are looking for. I have reverted your edit. --Mox La Push (talk) 02:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)--Mox La Push (talk) 02:15, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Rick Perry
I was trying to find a policy/guideline that indicates that quotes should be listed chronologically in articles, but haven't found such. Can you provide a link? --Buddpaul (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Chronological ordering is described at Templates. Appropriate section types are identified at Guide to layout. One of the principle reasons for this longstanding practice is to avoid the appearance of expressing editorial opinions about the subject. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

importing templates
Hi Ningauble. Please check the recent additions. It's possible I copied something superfluous, which you may want to delete. For example, in Template:Listen perhaps there is no need to have Category:Articles with hAudio microformats, as we almost don't use them. Thanks, DanielTom (talk) 11:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I assume you refer specifically to Template:Listen and its components Template:Listen/core and Template:Main other. (Reference to recent additions is rather broad, and is time sensitive.) About that template:
 * I don't have any interest in the type of media files to which the template pertains, and have not attempted to play them over my rather slow internet connection.
 * I do not have an opinion on the usefulness of categorizing articles that contain this type of media.
 * It appears that Template:Side box is not working as intended (or being used as intended): rather than a discrete box on the side of the page, it is displaying a wide banner across the page, breaking up the layout. (Checking a few other invocations of Side box, this appears to be a consistent problem.)
 * In short, though I don't feel a pressing need to delete any of this, I don't like it and would certainly never use it myself. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If I were American, I would tell you, "Your [sic] missing out!" ~ DanielTom (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Though my eclectic interests are broad and diverse, there is much that does not interest me and I do not miss it. I really dislike the overblown banner style of the template you have implemented, but not enough to nominate it for deletion at this time. I may decide differently if too many articles become cluttered by it. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but I don't think the banner is overblown, it extends only as far as the text goes. ~ DanielTom (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be a banner, it breaks up the page. The corresponding template at Wikipedia is implemented as a sidebar. I see no reason for using a display much wider than, or positioned differently than, a conventional image thumbnail. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, if you copy that WP "listen" example, it doesn't appear a "wide banner across the page", because the description text is small. But I take your point, that it should be like a picture to the right, though I don't understand why it doesn't work as in WP considering how the template codes are the same. DanielTom (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the weird wonderful world of template editing. Many Wikipedia templates are not directly usable at Wikiquote because they employ site-specific custom CSS, which is not editable by mere mortals. "Importing" a template often requires substantial translation from the local dialect of the source. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

protection
I already left this message before. Can you or another admin please protect my talk page. It is being met with vandalism again and I don't want to consistently revert the gibberish. - Zarbon (talk) 18:57, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Contact us

 * Contact Wikiquote volunteers confidentially at info-en@wikiquote.org

As no "Wikiquote volunteer" reads that email, shouldn't this be changed to something less deceptive to our readers? ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'll ask at the talk page. Sorry if I take too much of your time with questions, and please take it the right way, i.e. that you are one of the most valuable assets/human capital Wikiquote has. I hope you're doing well AFK, despite your recent relative inactivity, and that you'll have time to enjoy the match between Lee Sedol [whom I predict will be the winner] and Gu Li that is coming up (if you bother at all with recent Go events). Anyway, take care, DanielTom (talk) 13:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Please see here. ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Eden Ahbez
Could you undo my recent move? Apparently it's not possible to have uncapitalized first words as article titles on WQ. Thanks ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅ -- Golden burg 111 19:40, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * (Hm. Don't know what gave me the idea only admins could do it.) DanielTom (talk) 19:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian proverbs
Can you please move the page Ukranian proverbs to Ukrainian proverbs? Also, since you are that guy who tracks down quote origins, could you take a look at the quote "If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much.". It is attributed to Jim Rohn on sites such as Goodreads, but I have not been able to verify it myself. If you could help me with this, it would mean a lot to me. --Spannerjam (talk) 12:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The page has already been moved. FYI, you can do this yourself: in the "default skin", the move option is in the drop-down menu (at the little downward-pointing triangle, immediately to the left of the search box). If you don't see this, set me know which skin you are using. Regarding the quote attributed to Jim Rohn: I don't know where it came from, and I am not very interested in his sort of motivationalism. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Permission
Is it okay if I add meta:User:Goldenburg111/Reports/Wikiquote Vandalism Statics to into your userpage here? -- Golden burg 111 22:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Please don't. I don't know what might have given you the impression that my user profile page is a place for posting problem reports, but it is not. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:00, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Quotes from the book
Hello, you keep deleting the quotes from https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Struggle_Da_Preacher, they has been first published on the artist's official blog and there is a published book please do not delete them


 * Where exactly was it published? I have searched for it without success. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Removal of quotes from the talk page
"please do not use talk pages to archive material found unsuitable for the article" ...

Excuse me, but when is this standard practice to remove other user's archived material from the talk page?

If I recall, standard practice on Wikiquote actually IS to move quotes to the talkpage, for example, moving quotes for discussion at the talk page, and/or moving unsourced quotes to the talk page for further research.

There is simply no reason for this.

-- Cirt (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * For example, you yourself have moved quotes "unsuitable" for the quote page to the talk page, here: "moving unsourced attributions to talk page". -- Cirt (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's what makes me so confused why you would want to censor my research, or even censor my attempt to archive my research, as I'd seen you yourself move quotes to the talk page as recently as December 2013, and not simply outright deleting them. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 14:58, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Cirt, the practice of moving quotes to the Talk page has been used to place unsourced quotes there, pending sourcing. To use this process to place quotes that have been deemed unacceptable for the mainspace page is what I believe Ningauble is complaining about. This gives the impression that these quotes may at some future point be deemed acceptable and moved back to the main page. I agree that this is an inappropriate use of the Talk page. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright,, pending further discussion I will self-revert. But it feels like censorship of my research and inability to discuss specific quotes on the talk page! -- Cirt (talk) 15:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks - but just one more point. Were you truly placing quotes on the Talk page to discuss the appropriateness of keeping them, it might be a different matter. In this case, it appeared more that you were just putting them there to preserve them so that they would be archived. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * My intent has always been both! I always wish for people to please discuss specific quotes, individually, with me, instead of vague annoying complaints that are nonspecific. -- Cirt (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not seeing the dual purpose: there was no rationale offered for adding them back to the article, only an express intent to archive them. I find it very perplexing that an administrator of long standing here would give the appearance of subverting the purpose of article talk pages. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I am just as surprised at the embrace of censorship. -- Cirt (talk) 18:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Mickle read Dryden
From Book I of his translation of the Lusiads,
 * Nor shall the godlike Albuquerque restrain The Muse's fury; o'er the purpled plain The Muse shall lead him in his thund’ring car Amidst his glorious brothers of the war, Whose fame in arms resounds from sky to sky, And bids their deeds the power of death defy.

From Book IV:
 * —————————————the bloody doom That dy'd with slaughter Cannae's purple field 

There might be other occurrences, but this is as far as I've read. He also mentions the "dye of Tyre" in Book II. Cheers, DanielTom (talk) 22:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't you see
Don't you see that is trying to censor and whitewash from the Internet any slightest mention of Scientology in relation to Werner Erhard and Landmark Forum, and any slightest mention of Werner Erhard and Landmark Forum in relation to Scientology? -- Cirt (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What I see is that you appear to be trying to use Wikiquote to document any slightest mention of relationships between these persons and organizations or, in the case of the quote we have been discussing at Talk:Scientology, to document an instance where they are mentioned in the same paragraph among examples of something broader. Documenting any slightest mention is not what Wikiquote is for. You and MLKLewis may have conflicting interests or agendas, but it is Wikiquote's agenda that matters here. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree it is Wikiquote's agenda we should focus on. But this agenda of Wikiquote should not enable sycophants to engage in censorship on the Internet to rewrite history according to the view of a particular guru, wouldn't you agree? -- Cirt (talk) 17:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If I may, my view in this situation is that certainly were someone actually trying to censor what we place on a page on Wikiquote, there would be a problem. But I do not see that trying to ensure that a given quote is worthy of inclusion (and in so doing removing extraneous material that is not quotable) sinks to the level of censorship or of trying to "rewrite history." Your characterization of a user you happen to disagree with as a sycophant engaged in censorship is not warranted in my opinion and is uncalled for. I have often found that users tend to try to include quotes on a page simply if they happen to mention the subject of said page - regardless of whether or not the quote is memorable, pithy, or otherwise quotable. To me this is not the aim of this project and your insistence in trying the same on the cited pages is unfortunate. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:31, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I did not characterize any user that way. I said Wikiquote should not be in the practice of enabling users IFF users were acting that way. -- Cirt (talk) 18:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅, I've made a good faith attempt at compromise and trimmed the quote, per above recommendation by, please see diff, thank you, -- Cirt (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Linkin Park: Live In Texas
Its not copyright violation, I've listen to the audio and made sure I've got all the words right, the lyrics in the song is copyright but I've put the words down on paper first then type them up or out, I've changed some of the words in the lyrics due to having the right words in the songs, the DVD/CD is censored but I've figured out what they said, usually the studio version songs are the only one that gets lyrics but the world don't get to see the live version of these songs and read or see these speeches between each songs so I've wanted to put this out for the world to see, what the band said on that DVD, I'll remake the lyrics on what the band say during the break between each song like speeches. (Mike: ...) and (Chester: ...) like that to make it more clear on they said between songs and during songs.


 * A line or two from a few songs would be acceptable within the limits of "fair use" of copyrighted materials, but not complete lyrics or performances. Transcribing from a DVD into text is a derivative work subject to the limitations on fair use of the original. For some quantitative guidance on fair use at Wikiquote, see Limits on quotations. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

How would one start
How would one start to contribute collaboratively to selecting the Main Page Quote of the Day, if one wished to do so in advance of its selection?

Does the process provide for inclusive collaboration, or is it built on this website to only allow for one (1) individual to control this process?

Please help advise on where one goes to contribute collaboratively in a way where the input will actually be heard and used?

Thank you,

-- Cirt (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC) Thank you for your understanding in this matter,
 * 1) I see this page here at Quote of the day/March.
 * 2) Where does the process go next, from voting on quotes, to actual formatting of the Quote of the Day Page ?
 * 3) Where is the next stage of collaboration for what those quote pages will look like?
 * 4) Or is Wikiquote truly only set up to have one (1) individual controlling the final format of those pages?
 * 5) I wish to contribute to discussions about this in a collaborative manner, I'm just not sure where that actually occurs, if it does, at all, before quotes appear on the Main Page in the final formatted version.

-- Cirt (talk) 17:41, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I assume there are rhetorical questions, because I believe you are fully aware of how the process has been working. If you have a concrete proposal, please feel free to raise it in an appropriate community forum. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:01, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ningauble, these are not rhetorical questions. I honestly am not fully familiar with the Main Page Quote of the Day process. I am asking you, in good faith, where these layout pages are discussed, before they appear on the Main Page? -- Cirt (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It is quite evident that you are fully aware of exactly what has been going on. I am not amused by an administrator of several years standing play-acting at being an ingénue. If you have a concrete proposal, please feel free to raise it in an appropriate community forum rather than baiting me on my talk page. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ningauble, please, I am not baiting you! Please understand, I don't have much familiarity with this Main Page Quote of the Day process! I see you have voted before and participated in this process in the past -- I haven't yet participated in that part of it. I really don't quite yet know fully how it works. I would really appreciate your help understanding how quotes and layout get from the voting part to the layout part and then to the Main Page? -- Cirt (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Q at Meta
Asked you a question at Meta re. template formatting. ~ DanielTom (talk) 00:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Replied there. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:12, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Charles Saxby‎
Shouldn't you notify User:ILVI of the VfD? ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:42, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Feel free to do so if you like. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

grammar Q
Which one is correct: "Oh salty sea, how much of your salt / is tears from Portugal!", or, "Oh salty sea, how much of your salt / are tears from Portugal!" ? Thanks ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "How much is", because subject and predicate should agree in number, and the question is "how much" rather than "how many" because "salt" is a mass noun. "Is" is only nominally symmetric, not strictly, and it is ok for subject and object to disagree in number. In the poem, tears are what much of the salt is. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:33, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Understood; last question, if I may: re. presentation of verses, which one do you consider correct, "Oh salty sea, how much of your salt/is tears of Portugal!", or, "... how much of your salt/ is tears of Portugal!", or even, "... how much of your salt / is tears of Portugal!" ? Thanks again. ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I assume the slash represents a line break in the original poem. A line break would be correct, except when quoting inline as in your original question above. When using a slash for this purpose I would separate it from adjacent words with spaces, but when using it to form a compound like "either/or" I would not. Unless there is a good reason not to, it would generally be safe to use the same convention as the translation you are citing for the quotaton. ~ Ningauble (talk) 11:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Going back to the initial question, I just noticed, that as a matter translation, which should be accurate, & faithful, to the original, "are" is appropriate. Pessoa writes, "quanto do teu sal / São lágrimas", and even if it is an error to use "são" [plural] instead of "é [singular] lágrimas", the translation should still reflect this. (Just explaining why I changed it back.) Cheers ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Vladimir Nabokov suggests, in Problems of Translation (1955), that "the clumsiest literal translation is a thousand times more useful than the prettiest paraphrase." However, whatever the translator has done, I think the best practice is to use the actual wording of the cited translation. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "Useful" to whom? Literal translations are most desirable to students, and in prose. But in poetry, they are a crime to the original author, and poems translated in a word-by-word fashion are (correctly, in my view) despised by the public. No one can tolerate a long poem, written without fire, and without rhymes. On the contrary, the best translations in your own language, Dryden's Aeneid, and Pope's Iliad, are those where the translators are themselves poets, and their translations are the greatest, and most sublime, when they take poetic license, while still expressing the true sense of the original. There is, of course, a thin line between a poetic translation, and a paraphrase. Longfellow calls, very justly, Mickle's "translation" of the Lusiads a rifacimento, and yet, in Mickle's Introduction to the Portuguese epic, he himself admits, that his purpose was "to give a poem that might live in the English language." And, he adds, "the original is in the hands of the world." Cheers. ~ DanielTom (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I merely quoted Nabokov in support of using fractured English to represent fractured Portuguese. I certainly do not take it as Gospel. Give it a rest. My more important point is in the second sentence of the post above. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

punctuation Q
If I take the first two names that spring to my mind of French philosophers, Montesquieu and Voltaire, and go to their pages on French Wikiquote, I see things like—


 * L'amour de la république, dans une démocratie, est celui de la démocratie ; l'amour de la démocratie est celui de l'égalité.

and other such punctuation (in their Voltaire page alone, semicolons are used as above 20 times).

Not to abuse your patience too much, but perhaps you know, & can tell me, whether the use of semicolon (or other punctuation marks) preceded (and followed) by a space, is correct in the French (or in any other) language? Thanks ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Spacing before a semicolon is not current usage in any language I know, but it was very common a couple hundred years ago. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:13, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Parable
Please see my explanation on the discussion page with regard to the citation tags which you have introduced in this article, and clarify so that I can make changes accordingly.--Nvvchar (talk) 02:21, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Kalki's edits
Can you please speak to editor Kalki regarding his tone for instance atL http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=George_H._W._Bush&oldid=1706793. Calling people he disagrees with 'asinine' and making other disparaging remarks does not help the project. My edit simply was to remove a link to a personal website as a citation. The Wikipedia project removed this same link because its not a WP:RS and there already is a third party citation here. Thank you, 128.229.4.2 15:00, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Revdel
Shouldn't this be revdeld? Special:Diff/1717479. It works (I tried :O). --Glaisher (talk) 12:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * OS'd --Glaisher (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, fine. I just applied a quick, one-click solution without much thought. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Closure of Votes for deletion/Sumit Chowdhury
This was a difficult one; the fact that it was over a week past its close date suggests that other people were reluctant to come to a decision. I made the closure in good faith, but I am very happy to have the matter referred to a deletion review for further discussion.--Abramsky (talk) 05:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. I realize it can be difficult to draw conclusions from this sort of "vote". I think it needs to be reconsidered, and have listed it at WQ:DRV. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Narendra Modi
Hi Ningauble, I commented on the recent developments at talk:Narendra Modi and your feedback there will be much appreciated. -- Mdd (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I replied there. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:14, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much
Thank you for your category help at the new page I've created, Adrianne Wadewitz.

Much appreciated,

-- Cirt (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Sudhir Ruparelia
Thx but when I see what you have done to this article, I feel like a deflated balloon. It makes me want to stop editing on Wikiquote. You say that those quotes are unsourced but if you take time to read all the sources provided, you will find that each of the quotes I had compiled are actually from one of them. It would be too monotonous for me to repeat the sources everywhere. I know the policy that's why I did not get from unsourced text except for only one of the quotes about Sudhir: I added it from a voice recording of someone talking at a function. Have you read the sources provided and cross checked meticulously like I did? You have literally ruined the article I tried to share! Thanks for keeping an eye but that was so demoralising! Hop u recheck each quote! • Aikolugbara (talk) 01:35, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I am sorry if this is frustrating to you, but each quote needs to identify a specific source where the quote is published. For example:
 * Citations like "Interview with Forbes" should identify the author (interviewer), the title of the article, and the issue of the magazine (publication date and/or volume and issue number).
 * Citations like "Speech at Victoria University", or "During the Launch of...", or "Spoken on Friday..." need to identify where the texts or recordings are published.
 * If there are multiple quotations from a single source, they each need to be identified (after the first full citation, subsequent ones may be abbreviated by, e.g., repeating just the title); or they can be grouped together under one section heading.
 * If you are not sure how to format this, you can use the article talk page to give information about the sources and someone may be able to help you include it in the article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:53, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Apology accepted but you did the right thing. To be honest, your edit made the article neater, I have to appreciate that. I must confess my summarising skills aren't the best and I need people like you to polish me up. I'm also sorry for reacting too fast, I had just woken up and my first reaction was sleepy eyed. Trust me, I shouldn't have even protested your edits! YOU DID THE RIGHT THING, thanks! I won't stop contributing, just need to follow the rules! • Aikolugbara (talk) 06:41, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

prod
By "prodding" so many articles all at the same time, you are making it impossible for anyone to rescue them. ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:12, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not really so many. UDScott prodded more than that in one day last month, and some of them were rescued. There are not such a large number of currently proposed deletions that the one week provided is insufficient to investigate them. There have occasionally been more than fifty in the backlog, which does get unwieldy. You can always request hanging on to something you are actively researching, or you can request undeletion when your research bears fruit. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Omnia Vanitas (All Is Vanity)
The wisdom contained in Ecclesiastes—its perspective on how to best face death—is very distinct from that of the other books in the Bible.

When Sam Harris reminds us that "it is always now", claiming that to be the most important thing for us to understand if we want to be happy in this world, he is only echoing that same old wisdom (though from a different tradition). We are always planning for our future happiness—"if I just do this, then I can finally be happy"—but, as he says, the future never arrives.

Adam Smith, in his noblest work, The Theory of Moral Sentiments, says something very similar:


 * Through the whole of his life he [a poor man's son] pursues the idea of a certain artificial and elegant repose which he may never arrive at, for which he sacrifices a real tranquillity that is at all times in his power, and which, if in the extremity of old age he should at last attain to it, he will find to be in no respect preferable to that humble security and contentment which he had abandoned for it. (IV.I.8)

The rich man is he who contents himself with the little he has—and the most proper method of getting rich is to diminish the wants and desires. The richest of the rich is he who conserves his heart empty of appetites and desires – Nature is content with little.

But if we realized this, the whole economy would collapse:


 * The pleasures of wealth and greatness, when considered in this complex view, strike the imagination as something grand and beautiful and noble, of which the attainment is well worth all the toil and anxiety which we are so apt to bestow upon it.
 * And it is well that nature imposes upon us in this manner. It is this deception which rouses and keeps in continual motion the industry of mankind. It is this which first prompted them to cultivate the ground, to build houses, to found cities and commonwealths, and to invent and improve all the sciences and arts, which ennoble and embellish human life; which have entirely changed the whole face of the globe, have turned the rude forests of nature into agreeable and fertile plains, and made the trackless and barren ocean a new fund of subsistence, and the great high road of communication to the different nations of the earth. The earth by these labours of mankind has been obliged to redouble her natural fertility, and to maintain a greater multitude of inhabitants. (IV.I.9–10 [my emphasis])

If I am allowed to quote further, on the significance of vanity to humankind:


 * For to what purpose is all the toil and bustle of this world? what is the end of avarice and ambition, of the pursuit of wealth, of power, and preheminence? Is it to supply the necessities of nature? The wages of the meanest labourer can supply them.
 * [...]
 * From whence, then, arises that emulation which runs through all the different ranks of men, and what are the advantages which we propose by that great purpose of human life which we call bettering our condition? To be observed, to be attended to, to be taken notice of with sympathy, complacency, and approbation, are all the advantages which we can propose to derive from it. It is the vanity, not the ease, or the pleasure, which interests us. But vanity is always founded upon the belief of our being the object of attention and approbation. The rich man glories in his riches, because he feels that they naturally draw upon him the attention of the world, and that mankind are disposed to go along with him in all those agreeable emotions with which the advantages of his situation so readily inspire him. At the thought of this, his heart seems to swell and dilate itself within him, and he is fonder of his wealth, upon this account, than for all the other advantages it procures him. The poor man, on the contrary, is ashamed of his poverty. He feels that it either places him out of the sight of mankind, or, that if they take any notice of him, they have, however, scarce any fellow-feeling with the misery and distress which he suffers. (I.III.16 [my emphasis])

A. Smith's description of the poor man's son's wishes (e.g.: "He is displeased with being obliged to walk a-foot, or to endure the fatigue of riding on horseback. He sees his superiors carried about in machines, and imagines that in one of these he could travel with less inconveniency.") all too remind me that we, the children of the West, already have paradise on Earth. Reading Bertrand Russell's description of an ideal society, and how the happy man would work perhaps half the day, and spend the rest in leisure, appears to be a description of what most of us have today. We are already living the dream. Of course only a few people among us realize this; mostly immigrants. Cheers, DanielTom (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2014 (UTC) <!-Feel free to undo/delete or hat this, it got bigger than expected.->


 * (Last night I emailed Sam Harris the first quote, under the title "Adam Smith agrees with you", and what do you know, he personally replied saying he found it interesting and thanked me. Cool, uh?) ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Either/Or
Hi Ningauble, since you interested in copyright concerns, could you give your feedback here, thank you. Mdd (talk) 17:58, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I have replied there. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you. -- Mdd (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Spam filters
I have a couple of spam filters at meta that I apply globally (as a stewards' filter) and at enWS. As enWQ is not on the global abuse filter, I can see the spambots getting through that these filters are capturing elsewhere. They have been running well for extended period and have an extremely low rate of false positives. Do you mind if I add them in? (please ping me when you reply). Thanks.  sDrewth  13:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer sDrewth, this might be helpful. Which couple filters do you have in mind, and what patterns of abuse do they target? (Interestingly, it looks like Global AbuseFilter is a "proposal" that went live without adopting a formal policy. I guess it can be rightly considered something within the discretion of stewards & global sysops, which would be why it is only enabled on "small wikis" and special cases. I would hesitate to opt in as long as it is not transparent to local sysops.) By the way, I am thinking about disabling filter #15 (among others) because the pattern has abated for some time. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have reused 15 with one filter, and added 18, though have set 18 to warn/tag just in case the practices of your users is very different. I will consider them under your control, and will update them if prodded. With regard to the global filters, the stewards had been consulting with central wikis and adding them after consultation. The small wikis were added without consultation with stewards, and while some (aaaaah, ummmm) discussion took after the fact about the process, it was left as is. To note that only stewards can add or edit global filters. Re transparency, any filter hit logs locally, so you will see results, though not the filter. I am pondering and have been pondering for a while that we look to add an abusefilter editor right to meta and your point is a valid point (though it would only allow the view of a global filter, not an edit right). Thanks for the permission and the feedback.  sDrewth  00:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Urk, shows that morning is not my best time to multitask when cleaning up spambots and interpreting all the way to the end of the paragraph. You asked what they were, not straight to permission. Both are user space, NTSAMR is the replacement filter, and dubious homepage/blog/social media site is the second. There is a little documentation within the filters. And pinging me here is sufficient, I have my alerts turned on.  sDrewth  03:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * (Sorry if the paragraph was TL;DR sDrewth. Please bear with me, as this post is even longer.) Note that we already have a filter for Ntsamr, #16, as listed at NTSAMR. Some edits of that nature do slip through, but it is our busiest filter, with more hits since it was set up last October than the ever-popular #8 (page blanking). #16 could be improved by adding new trigger phrases that are seen more than a couple times in posts that slip through. I notice that there is considerable overlap: the new #15 is substantially a duplicate of #16, with only three differences. (It omits to check whether there are any links, it does not apply to namespace 3, and it adds one phrase to check.) The two new filters already have four hits in the very short time since you set them up, but all of those edits also tripped the existing filter #16. (One user tripped all three filters with a single post.[//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=PenelopGoodenou]) I appreciate your effort to help, but this appears to be redundant.~ Ningauble (talk) 14:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

want
I was thinking of adding the quote:


 * I want not honest studies for my prime, Nor long experience, since to mix withal; I want not wit (such as in this you see), Three things which rarely in conjunction be.

to the Camões article, but I'm afraid (and almost sure) that it will be misunderstood.

So, is there a template similar to Wikisource's Template:SIC that would help make the meaning of certain words in context clearer?

For example, for the word "want" in the above example, or in "Onely I want acceptance in your eye" – how do I make it clear that it means lack? (Should I write a note?) ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "[sic]" is for annotating errors in the source, and would not be appropriate here because this is perfectly legitimate usage. It is doubtless true that some readers will misunderstand practically anything; but reasonably well read people can be expected to be familiar with this usage, and the parenthetical in the third line resolves potential ambiguity between the senses of lack and desire. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:00, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course "[sic]" would be wrong, I said similar, i.e. I was thinking of something similar to the WS template that would also underline the word, and produce a pop-up, in this case clarifying the meaning of the word. (But I guess there is no such template.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC)