User talk:Raven Onthill

Mdd (talk) 22:11, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Ernst Thälmann
Hi Raven, after taking another look at the lemma you started, and checking notable sources I noticed that the first quote is attributed to other persons as well. Also we generally don't translate quotes here ourselves, but only collect translated quotes. In the current state the lemma is not suitable for Wikiquote. -- Mdd (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Political scientist Adolph Reed, Jr. attributes it to Thälmann; I suppose I can write and ask him for more specific sources, but that seems excessive. C.L.R. James, published in 1937, says it was a common saying of German Communists of the period, much like "Stronger together" was among Democrats, so other people did indeed say it. It has, in any event, become part of current English-language political discourse and deserves a citation, at least as a misattribution.


 * Thälmann was an important historical figure and has Wikiquote pages in German, Turkish, and Catalan; there ought to be one in English, but unless you can find a bilingual scholar of the period to write it, machine translation is what we have. Raven Onthill (talk) 05:02, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I resolved the situation in the usual way. If you want your own translations back, don't add it to the lemma again, but explain on the talk page. -- Mdd (talk) 22:00, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Please only add quotes in English from reliable English sources. If Thälmann is indeed an important historical figure, these quotes should be round. And if not, so be it: then he is no important historical figure in English literature, and we are not here to change that. -- Mdd (talk) 22:04, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * They are not *my* translations


 * Hey, wait a minute, that's a stub. It's supposed to be expanded, not buried because it is disputed.


 * Can you suggest for English-language sources which cover Thalmann's life and the KPD?
 * Raven Onthill (talk) 22:21, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The article is not buried. Just look for example at the Albert Einstein lemma, which also has a disputed section. English quotes from reliable sources can be added at all times.


 * As to English-language sources. The C.L.R. James article from 1937 mentions the following English publication by Thaelmann:
 * "Some Mistakes in our Work," by Ernest Thaelmann. The Communist International, December 15, 1931, p. 717.
 * And maybe there are more!? I am not an expert in Thaelmann. -- Mdd (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I have added two quotes as an example, how the article can be expended. -- Mdd (talk) 23:02, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm very busy right now (which is part of why this was not better researched) but I'll probably come back to this. I mostly added it because it is timely, and because I was stunned not to see any Thälmann quotes at all. While he is not widely known among US English speakers (but you could say that about almost any socialist) he is an important figure in world history and deserves better, as do we. Raven Onthill (talk) 09:05, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I wonder before you wrote this, you asked yourself why the quote is not present at the German Wikiquote lemma? I already explained that typifying the quote as disputed is based on all 31 Google Book results, of which only 4 (so 15%) mention Thaelmann. On Wikiquote we have this kind of discussion more often, and you can also ask for feedback at the Village Pump. -- Mdd (talk) 09:46, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for updating the text. There is, by the way, a significant difference between a software engineer and a systems engineer and between a visual artist (concerned with visual expression) and a conceptual artist (concerned with ideas). -- Mdd (talk) 10:14, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * My apologies for the snarky remark which I have since deleted; I didn't understand the situation and was quite unhappy with it. I did ask myself why "Nach Hitler kommen Wir" did not appear in the German versions of Wikiquote. My guess is those are quotes contributed by people who know Thälmann as a Communist martyr, and indeed he was imprisoned and ultimately executed by the Nazis. Thälmann's Stalinism and "Nach Hitler kommen Wir," are not things any European Communist are likely to be proud of!


 * I'm sorry I got your profession wrong, too. "Systems engineer" is not a title that has much currency in US English as far as I can tell, though it may still be used in large organizations. — Raven Onthill (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the explanation, it indeed can be hard to make a start here. I think the fact that the quote is not present at the German lemma (and doesn't seem to be added and removed since the lemma started in 2005) confirms there is reason for doubt. For me the situation is undetermined: there is not sufficient evidence to attribute the quote, or to call it a misattribution. The current status seems a suitable solution. -- Mdd (talk) 23:09, 18 February 2017 (UTC)