Wikiquote:Village pump archive 16

=Village pump archive 16= From August till November 2007, originally posted to Village pump.

Images in PD in US
I propose we allow uploading of images that are in the public domain in the US by virtue of being published prior to 1923. This applies, for example, to. It was removed from Commons, which is multilingual for all projects, because it is not PD in all countries. However, it is valid for Wikipedia and there is no reason why it cannot be used on WQ for the same reason. Tyrenius 00:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I can think of a reason. Enforcing license issues is very challenging, as amply demonstrated by our backlog of copyvio-flagged articles and the fact it's taken us two years to finish reviewing a fairly small set of existing images. Wikipedia provides a trove of examples of how many people simply don't pay attention to licensing requirements when uploading, and we don't have the editor bandwidth or the automated tools in place to police this. I'd want to see a practical means for us to ensure we have proper licensing for any new images before I would support new uploads. But I can see the unfortunate need for it, given Commons' restrictions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no strong reason currently, so just reference as thought food.
 * From Wikimedia:Resolution:Licensing policy
 * Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP)
 * a project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law (including case law) as applicable to the project, and permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project, regardless of their licensing status. Examples include: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content and http://pl.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Dozwolony_u%C5%BCytek.
 * I suppose it isn't enough for us to consider US laws only, since I suppose other English speaking countries should fall onto the category "countries where the project content is predominantly accessed". In the Wikipedia case, the edit submission by TDL in 2006 (taken from Edits by project and country of origin) was
 * enwiki (47.8%): US: 52.1%, GB: 15.9%, CA: 7.3%, AU: 4.4%, DE: 1.8%, NL: 1.6%, FR: 1.0%, all others: 15.8%
 * I'd love to see how English Wikipedia people conclude the necessity of consideration of other country law, specially UK law (15.9% could be ignored or not?)
 * For comparison, German Wikipedia regards US law as well as five countries' law where German is the official language regardless of user population.
 * dewiki (10.8%): DE: 76.2%, AT: 5.4%, US: 4.8%, CH: 4.4%, NL: 3.2%, all others: 6.0%
 * --Aphaia 08:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just in case it's not clear, copyright in Britain is for 70 years from the death of the author so "prior to 1923" just won't work here.--Poetlister 16:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The servers are in the US, so, as I understand it, US law applies as the prime consideration legally. However, someone uploading from another country would need to ascertain they were acting legally within that country. This means a US-PD image would be legal to upload in the US, but not necessarily if the user were in the UK uploading it. The solution would seem to then be to get someone in the US to upload it! As far as checking such images, this could be done before it is permitted to be used in an article, maybe an equivalent to VfD, but IfU (Images for uploading) where the uploading would have to be approved. It could be done with a link to the source.  In the case of US PD cited, the number of images would be limited, and some valuable ones (e.g. T.S. Eliot) could then be used. Tyrenius 23:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The servers are in the US, so the US laws applies without reservation. But it doesn't mean other countries' law aren't applied. For example, in the case of a British author, the copyright holder (the heir of a dead poet or photograher ... regarding the type of works) can sue those who violate their right in the British court. And T.S. Eliot was a British citizen as nationality. Also I would point Wikisource (before language division) delete the works Andre Gide which are considered PD under the US jurisdiction, but still copyrighted under the French jurisdiction. It is not the matter where the uploader is living, but which jurisdiction the right holder can claim their right. --Aphaia 15:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Very, very, well said. But my opinion, I am sorry Tyrenius, is to keep uploads restricted.  Cbrown1023    talk   16:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * PD-US is admissible in Wikimedia Commons. If something PD-US has to be excluded because it is copyrighted in the UK, then Nazi logo could have to be removed for the sake of German people, or even worse, materials politically considered objectionable in Red China could have to be removed for the sake of the people there. Wikimedia server is based in Florida, USA, so the first laws to consider are the USA and Floridan ones. Whether to consider other national laws depends on specific Wiki sites, such as German Wikipedia forbidding fair use images. Ironically, American non-acceptance of the rule of the shorter term could mean that even non-American users cannot legally send materials PD in their home countries to Wiki sites without fair use, and this is too bad. After all, always consider the laws applying to Florida, USA, the laws of the originating places, and uploaders' physical locations.--Jusjih 17:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)(Commons and English Wikipedia admin)


 * I had a chance to chat with Mike Godwin, Foundation lawyer. His opinion is near to Jusjih, like "first consider US law, and if the copyright holders appear they are not consent, then consider the jurisdiction they reside". Also English Wikipedia has established their policy about this issue w:WP:NONFREE. It contains several things which are not directly relevant to us (for now), but it could be a good basis for our own development. It is obvious we need to justify our fairuse materials and need to establish the criteria what is allowed and no. --Aphaia 13:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Since you are concerned of non-American users, I would like to propose a new image use policy. "Images that are PD in the USA but copyrighted elsewhere may not be displayed here." I propose this as I consider claiming fair use on copyrighted images with quotes very undesirable even in the USA. If a PD-US image is copyrighted in the United Kingdom, I do not consider a British user likely able to remain "fair" when copying with quotes as Wikiquote is not en encyclopedia.--Jusjih 01:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Very cautious, but better safe than sorry I suppose.--Cato 21:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I don't believe in making any more rules about anything than are absolutely necessary, or with dealing with the often intricate complications of such rules as others have made any more than actually necessary. These are two strong reasons that I find it simplest to simply use what is available at the commons, frustrating as some deficiencies can sometimes be, and to let the copyright issues be sorted out there. I cannot see any immediate need for us to be more restrictive in any way with images that are usable here than the commons is, nor that there is any good reason to take on the burdens, frustrations and confusions of being less so. The status quo of simply using what is available on the Commons is the least troublesome of situations that can exist, and I see no strong reasons to change it. ~ Kalki 23:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, let's leave it to the experts on Commons. They can't be oblivious to the fact that there are places outside the US with different copyright laws. Poetlister 21:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Notability - some thoughts
Excuse some ramblings from a newbie. I enjoy Wikiquote a lot and find things of interest all the time. However some recent VfDs have made me think about the wider ramifications of "Notability" and I have some concerns.

Take for example politicians and the case of Steve Kagen. I think we might tend to agree that such people seek a high profile to promote their causes & careers. This is addressed to a degree by Jeff's comments that we need to be ruthless about politician's articles. I am certainly not suggesting that the quotations of genuinely famous statesmen and politicians should not be here but I am asking how widely they should be famous to be included? There are many forms of "local" government worldwide - I doubt we should accommodate the views of all such people.

I would suggest that Wrestlers for example may not be dissimilar. I am sure some of them may be genuinely "notable" on a relatively global scale, however I have some doubts about a number of them and their pronouncements.

Taking a slightly different tack there are Computer/video games. By their very nature these may well achieve a high internet profile with groups, discussion boards, promotional activity & the like. They are "notable" in some senses but with a relatively limited audience perhaps.

The problem I then have is that these categories (& I am sure others as well) may well achieve a higher "Notability" than say a relatively obscure Surrealist poet such as Nancy Joyce Peters. Does this make their contributions genuinely more notable?

I would welcome others views on this - thanks for your patience -- Herby talk thyme 08:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Notability is an essay but not even a guideline. How about a guideline here?--Jusjih 13:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Speaking of politicians, I see another problem brewing at Ron Paul. Instead of pithy quotes, we have tons of tracts on all manner of subjects. Wikiquote should not be used to promote or to vilify politicians, or to record their opinions on everything under the sun. It should reflect the most powerful, concise statements they make, for good and ill. This is an occupational hazard with politician articles, and the main reason I believe we need to apply a ruthless scalpel to them. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that we need to diverge from Wikipedia standards of notability. By those standards, any congressman is notable by definition.  That doesn't make them a worthwhile source of quotes.  Ideally, we'd need a rigorous criterion for "worthwhile", but no doubt we'd never agree.--Poetlister 16:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue of a notable subject without a place in Wikiquote came up recently in the "The Masterpiece" Christopher Masterpiece VFD. In that discussion, the idea of "quotability", in addition to notability, was raised. I don't know that we necessarily need to have our notability standards diverge from Wikipedia, but rather add a "quotability" standard.
 * Basically, this is a point at which we differ from Wikipedia. While Wikipedia articles collect primarily biographical data, which exists for all people, only a subset of those people will merit Wikiquote pages. (For example, low-profile professional athletes, who have Wikipedia pages but are unlikely to say or write anything that would end up in a quote compendium, dead-tree or otherwise.)
 * However, I'm not sure that there's any good way to put such an idea into a clear written policy or guideline. —LrdChaos (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Quotability is an unavoidably subjective guideline, but there are ways to objectively limit the scope of the selection. Reliable secondary sources (e.g., news articles, being quoted in another's book) can demonstrate that professional writers and publishers find the material quoteworthy. Another is the pithiness I'm constantly harping on. Succinct, powerful quotes are inherently more likely to be memorable enough to be used as quips in conversation, an excellent indicator of pithiness. Originality is also essential. Anyone who is "quoted" as saying stuff that many have already said, either in exactly the same way or more succinctly, is probably not being quoted because they're quoteworthy, but because someone is just a fan of the person.
 * There are many informal guidelines like these. Perhaps we should create a Quotability essay with a concise list and examples to help editors make these judgment calls. It would also reinforce the idea that Wikiquote's purpose is not to be merely an archive of quoted material, but rather a selection of excellent quotes. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of a "Quotability" standard a lot (although I foresee some differences of opinion there!). However I still see a real issue with the fact that some subjects will be notable because of either the way the internet works (in the case of games for example) or because some subjects inherently seek publicity (politicians/wrestlers and the like).  Possibly the other side of this is that there may be worthwhile quotes around from folk to whom notability is of no interest at all. -- Herby  talk thyme 08:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Still differences of opinion about each subject will still need to be dealt with locally on each article or at Afd if agreement can't be reached by other means. But I agree that something must be remarkable about the quote. I think it would be helpful if this idea is tightened up in our guidelines, policies, essays and examples. FloNight 14:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, I almost failed this interesting discussion! I like the idea of Quotability standard and user essay. I'm looking forward to seeing it :) --Aphaia 08:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Probable GFDL problems with improper transwikis
I happened to looking through the Recent Changes, and I noticed another case where a page was created with quotes moved from Wikipedia (in this case, The Fly II, with an initial edit summary of "quotes from The Fly II, moved from the Wikipedia article"). I believe that it's actually fairly common for editors to simply move quotes out of Wikipedia articles and put them here, but I think this is a huge GFDL violation, as it's extraordinarily rare for edit histories to also be copied here.

While we haven't yet run into any problems with this, I think that we've reached a point where we should seriously consider stronger enforcement of the formal transwiki process to avoid further violations of the license and potential problems down the line. However, I'm not quite sure what form this enforcement should take. I'm tempted to treat this page, and others in the future, the same way that we currently handle copyright-violating pages: blank them with copyvio and nominate the page for deletion. On the one hand, I think this is a reasonable course of action, because the two situations (copying another webpage and GFDL violation by copying from Wikipedia) are substantially similar; on the other hand, the GFDL problem can be resolved fairly simply by copying the edit history from the Wikipedia article to here. I'm reluctant to just go ahead and do that, however, because I think it sets a bad precedent; namely, that editors moving material from Wikipedia to Wikiquote need not be concerned with doing it properly, because someone here will make the effort to sort it out.

Am I alone in these concerns, and if not, does anyone else have any suggestions for how to deal with this issue? —LrdChaos (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope you are not alone. En Wikibooks (despite its faults!) is very hot on this.  The only acceptable option is to transwiki with the history.  Any form of copy and paste is not permitted -- Herby  talk thyme 15:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * First, let me assure you that you are not alone in these concerns. I think you have laid out the issue quite well, but I do not really have a better solution. While it may seem a bit harsh, I would lean toward the copyvio approach, treating these transwikis in much the same way we treat pages where a user has merely copied the quotes page from IMDB. In such cases, we have blanked the page and nominated it for vfd, with the hope that someone will actually create a proper page - one that does not just copy the format of the IMDB page.


 * Of course, as you said, the solution is pretty easy, but I too would be reluctant to just fix it for someone (who does not really learn that what they did was wrong). I guess we should also take a look at the transwiki policy and perhaps provide some better instruction in properly performing the process so that this problem can be avoided (if the user so chooses), and outline the possibility that if the process is not followed, the page is likely to be blanked and nominated for vfd. ~ UDScott 15:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * m:Help:Transwiki says that unless importing function is active at any specific Wiki site, the only way is to, unfortunately, cut and paste WITH relevant edit hostory noted in a remote talk page. I would like to ask any admins here if page importing is enabled.--Jusjih 16:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The import extension is installed on all Wikimedia wikis, but there are not always import locations defined (that is our problem right now). If we wish to specify upload sources, we need to file a bug request after discussion here.  Cbrown1023    talk   17:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I found at m:Meta:Requests for help from a sysop or bureaucrat saying: "Import is currently enabled only from foundation wiki and the English Wikipedia. From other wikis, you need copy & paste your materials by hand." In its talk page, I raised our concerns here. m:User:Cbrown1023 has suggested that copying the history of the page as well would not be a GFDL violation. The disadvantage is the inability of non-administrators to see how changes were made if the original pages have been deleted from another Wiki site, which is common after moving free-use images to Commons and deleting from other Wiki sites. Enabling importing will allow non-administrators to fully see how changes were made even if the original pages have been deleted from another Wiki site. For those serious in enabling importing here, I hope that someone will answer, but some Meta users are concerned of forging edit history while importing through one's own disk.--Jusjih 13:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

(Unindenting for readability) I see that most of the discussion here seems to concern the possible use of the Import feature. While I think the feature is interesting, and it's definitely something that we should look into, I don't believe that merely having it available is going to make much of a dent in the problem of editors simply copying (and them removing) content from Wikipedia articles and pasting into pages here. We already have a formal transwiki process documented, though it's more for cases where an entire page is being moved to or from Wikiquote, but even the informal yet non-GFDL-violating process of copying the content and then copying the edit history would OK to me. Even if we were to enable Import, I doubt that (m)any of the editors (or the type of editors) who currently do copy-paste transwikis w/o edit histories are going to do things any differently, because the issue is one of culture, not of technology. Most of the people moving stuff are probably fairly active Wikipedia editors who know little-to-nothing of Wikiquote, other than it exists and is sometimes mentioned as a place to move quotes from WP articles. Unless we (and/or Wikipedia) can make changes to the culture, we're still going to have this problem, Import or not. This is why I've suggested the possibility of taking a more hard-line stance to pages created/modified here via the incomplete copy/paste method. It would help to dispel the idea that Wikiquote is merely a dumping ground for unwanted Wikipedia content (as evident by the lack of effort used by such movers to make their additions conform to our style) and help us avoid GFDL violations. —LrdChaos (talk) 14:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with LrdChaos that this is more of a cultural problem than a technical one. I'd been mulling over where to initiate a discussion of this at Wikipedia, which is the culture that needs changing, and ran across (the rather obvious in retrospect) w:Wikipedia:Quotations, an old proposed policy/guideline that someone tagged as "historical" last year, apparently after discussion petered out. I am attempting to resurrect it now by restoring the "proposed" banner and announcing it at w:Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). I invite the Wikiquote community to participate in this cross-project issue there and/or on the proposal's talk page. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to submit a bug about import activation from enwiki to enwikiquote. Although we may newly have name conflict issues (currently there is no assurance of identification between user:A@enwiki and user:A@enwikiquote), history inheritance becomes much easier. I heard from BirgitteSB that English Wikiquote had abolished transwiki completely and only import materials from English Wikipedia. I asked her how they did so, and she replied to me that they just watched the WP's AFD and pick something neat, if they want. Therefore so-called traswikied articles from ENWP are speedied as c&p without history on English Wikisource, she said.--Aphaia 11:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a very great news for us. I just tested adding myself importing right here through Meta and importing would be enabled. There would be no more message saying: "No transwiki import sources have been defined and direct history uploads are disabled." Let us select a place to allow users, especially admins, to request importing rights here. Then requests approved here will be sent to Meta for activation. Thanks to those who supported my steward election with 73-1-4-99%.--Jusjih 04:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC) (admin here and new Meta steward)


 * Are there any standard places already in use elsewhere for making such requests? No need to innovate on this. &#9786; ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I know of no standard places already in use elsewhere for making such requests. On Multilingual, English, and Chinese Wikisources, I would say their Scriptoriums, similar to our Village pump. On English Wiktionary, I would say wikt:Wiktionary:Beer_parlour. Since importing is a privilege but not a common right, should we vote on WQ:RFA or any other voting pages?--Jusjih 02:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. We vote for Bureaucrat and Checkuser on RfA.--Cato 11:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have opened a new section at WQ:RFA. My dear fellow admins, if you would like importing rights, please request there.--Jusjih 01:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposals for year page placeholders
As our year page placeholders are not really used, I would like to propose some actions to make them potentially useful: For now, these may make year page placeholders somewhat useful, but I would like to request any consensus before going any further. So many shortest pages are these year page placeholders.--Jusjih 16:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) As simple English Wikipedia has simplified lists of births and deaths, should we make the same things here for people with articles here? We now have deaths categorized by centuries and since the 20th century by decades.
 * 2) Should we use year page placeholders to list works created or published in specific years? Some works are now categorized by decades or years.


 * I'd like to see these pages given some useful information, but I'm concerned we don't yet have enough community activity to establish and maintain the content. I can speak from experience — having created most of our month-date pages (e.g., July 31) and adding much of the relevant anniversary data to our "Quote of the Day" suggestion lists — that the Wikipedia lists have a number of errors, some of which (at the time, at least) could not be corrected by anyone but WP admins because they were transcluded from protected templates. The sheer amount of work to research the conflicts within Wikipedia, get someone to fix them, and then use them to populate our own pages, or just to do our own research, made me despair that we could accomplish this without many active editors working on this problem. But it would be great if we could get a bunch of folks to tackle this (hopefully without taking them from all the other backlogged work we have). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Given the scale of Wikiquote, there's no need to maintain articles (which is laborious and error-prone). All we need is to have a placeholder that says "To see articles that link to this year, click here" and provides a link to Special:Whatlinkshere.--Poetlister 16:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping to find under 2002 a list of quotes from that year, perhaps broken down by topic or month. It seems logical to me. --rag47 8 October 2007
 * The trouble is that most quotes have no year, still less a month, attached to them. Of course, if you can find dates and would like to start doing what you suggest, we can see what it looks like.--Cato 21:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Deep and shallow categories in the same article
Do we really need deep and shallow categories in the same article? For example, Image:Directed graph with back edge.svg suggests that John F. Kennedy should be categorized United States Presidents under Political leaders under Politicians, but using all of these three in the same article seems excessive. I would like to listen to comments before removing excessive shallow categories.--Jusjih 15:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I support this. There is no need for someone to be in say English people, poets and English poets.--Poetlister 16:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikiquote doesn't have much in the way of formal policy on categories, so as usual we fall back on Wikipedia conventions. Our practice, per Categorization, to treat parent categories as superfluous, but "cousin" categories as reasonable and expected. For instance, North by Northwest is a member of:
 * Year: Category:1950s films
 * Director: Category:Alfred Hitchcock films
 * Genres: Category:Crime films, Category:Mystery films, and Category:Thriller films
 * but it is not directly a member of Category:Films, which collects all of these. Each type of categorization, like Films by year and Films by director, collects all these specific categories, and is in turn collected under "Films". (Come to think of it, it looks like we need a Category:Films by genre to collect the genres.)


 * The Kennedy example shows an old problem with our political categories. Jusjih has appropriately removed the superfluous "Political leaders" category because "United States Presidents" is a subset of "Political leaders" and "Heads of state", the latter of which is a subset of "Politicians". But the reasons for these groupings are not obvious. We've had some discussion and questions about this in the past:
 * 2003: Talk:List of people by occupation
 * March-April 2005: Wikiquote talk:Category schemes discussions:
 * "Initial questions"
 * "Leaders"
 * June 2005: Category talk:Heads of state
 * July 2005: Talk:Abigail Adams
 * 2007: Category talk:Politicians
 * But I don't believe we've come to any consensus. The absence of any descriptive text in the categories themselves means editors can't be sure whether to add the category or not. I guess we need to try to get a community decision on how to define these categories and add some text to each to make it clear. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

DVD commentaries
Hi. New here. Not even sure if this should go here. I’ve been looking for an answer to this and maybe it’s a new thing. But if a quote comes from a DVD commentary where should it go? On the movie or TV page or the person who actually said it? At which point it would be a bit out of context. And a lot of those people probably aren’t big enough to have their own pages. I’m thinking of the 48 hours of Lord of the Rings commentaries with lots of good stuff. Would it be possible to create some sort of sub category for commentaries linked to the film or TV show?
 * We do not prohibit the same quote from appearing in more than one article, so in response to your question, quote comes from a DVD commentary could go to the movie page, TV page, and/or the person page, depending on the nature of the quote. However, as recent DVDs are copyrighted, only quote in very limited amount to avoid competing against the original works.--Jusjih 17:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"Mark Aaron A. Corrales"?
Oh, this is probably in the wrong section, or I'm doing something terribly wrong, or something, but...who is Mark Aaron A. Corrales? I see his quotes peppered here and there about Wikiquote, but he has no page and I can't pick up anything in Google--though maybe I'm not using the right words searching, or something... --24.221.176.159 07:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hum - interesting - I'm short of time but googling the name gives me Wikiquote and little else.  Contributions appear to be the work of this user.  I'd be interested in other opinions before we take them out and should we ask on the user's page? -- Herby  talk thyme 16:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Notability and quotability
Following some points on VfD, I have been searching for WQ guidelines on criteria for people to be quoted and criteria for quotes to be used, as well as the relationship between them (e.g. good quotes, but rather obscure person, or notable person but mundane quotes). I recall reading something a while ago, but I've been searching for half an hour, and, though I've found all sorts of wonderful things, I've not found what I've been looking for. As these criteria are fundamental ones, they should be very easy to find for newcomers. Do they exist somewhere glaringly obvious that I've missed? Tyrenius 00:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I get the impression that there's a rather circular rule on "good quotes, but rather obscure person". If a quote is in a reputable dictionary of quotations, that makes the person notable.  I'd agree with that, but we ought to say so explicitly.--Cato 07:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, there's at least some value to requiring a person to be at least somewhat notable, and that's in the likelihood of being able to get sources for quotes, as well as eliminating personal quotes and quotes from some editor's friends. I think that we have two different standards for notability anyway; one is a person notable enough to merit their own page, and the other is someone who isn't that notable, but whose quotes appear in some theme pages. (The recent Erasmus Smums VFD, where the result was to delete the page but move the quote to a theme, comes to mind as an example of this.) I think that perhaps we could do a better job of codifying this into a policy (or at least a guideline), but it is, to a certain extent, the way we already treat things. Notability already reflects the two standards, though the phrasing could probably use some tweaking and it might benefit from a very direct "separate page vs. quotes in theme page" statement or section to make it unambiguous (to the extent that such is possible, anyway). However, it's listed as an "essay" and not a policy or guideline.
 * As for quotability, Wikiquote:Notability briefly addresses that toward the end of the Theme articles section, but then the "Notability of individual quotes" (i.e, quotability) section is empty. —LrdChaos (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that most quotes in Wiktionary should actually appear on at least two different pages - once under the name of the speaker/author (presuming they are notable), and (since most notable quotes are about something) once on a theme page. A quote comparing things, such as love and war, should be on a theme page for each subject of comparison. I realize this will lead to a lot of redundancy, but unless a major change to the Wiki software allows automated internal compilation of quotes, there's no other way to make this source comprehensive. BD2412 T 15:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds logical. I am not a tech-savvy, so not sure if Semantic MediaWiki would be a solution, but BD2412 proposing system (one quotes appeared on both speaker/author and theme articles) would fit more a semantic content management system than a normal wiki. Just a thought. --Aphaia 09:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Single User Login
I myself didn't attend the presentation, but on August 5 in Taipei Brion Vibber gave a talk about technical update as Hacking Days (August 2) report. I heard from a friend of mine that Brion had announced we would transit very soon to the single user login mode until the end of this year. It was suggested, according to my friend, the issue of name conflict (like w:no:user:Nina and w:de:user:Nina are different people) wouldn't be solved in its earliest stage. The detailed information will come from Brion himself, soon hopefully. Just for your information. --Aphaia 09:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: There is a beta/demo version up at the Developer-Test Wikipedia. Create an account there with the same name as your other account and test it out. :-)  Cbrown1023    talk   21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright warning upon article creation
At MediaWiki talk:Newarticletext, I've brought up a possible way to reduce the frequent creation of articles that are merely copied from other websites (most notably IMDb.com). It would basically add a  not to just copy another website's material when creating a new article. I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this approach. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would support using such a notice, as wholesale copying of such unorganized and often unreliable quotes are some of the more frequent occurrences of potential copyright violation and dubious reliability of sources that occurs here. ~ Kalki 01:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur with you guys. If I recall correctly, some of our sister projects - perhaps Wikipedia in some languages - use even a huge sized font for the part of this message. --Aphaia 11:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I also support this (and have left a note of support on the talk page). ~ UDScott 13:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing will stop the really determined copyvio merchant, but this should deter some people.--Poetlister 20:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It seemed that everyone was in support of it, and there had been no discussion for a few days, so I added it.  Cbrown1023   talk   21:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Quote of the day on my Wikipedia talk page?
Hi, I'm interested in getting the quote of the day on my Wikipedia talk page. The closest so far is the Wikipedia motto of the day which is nice but not as illuminating as I had hoped for, is this possible or at least being considered? Benjiboi 12:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose it is rather a matter of Wikipedia editor, regardless which Wikipedia you are come from. Wikimedia setting don't enable us to make inter-project inclusion. As "picture of the day" of Commons,
 * Someone set a bot on your Wikipedia.
 * Copy and paste the Wikiquote QotD to a dedicated page or template periodically.
 * You can include it into your page.
 * You may ask for help on your Wikipedia's discussion page. Good luck. --Aphaia 12:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information. Benjiboi 04:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You could also consider subscribing to an e-mail copy of it at daily-article-l.  Cbrown1023   talk   21:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

How to move a page?
Hi, I'm trying to interested in the TV series Primeval and just created a page for it, but have hit a snag. The Wikipedia page is called Primeval (TV Series) and the Wikiquote page I created is just called Primeval (like an idiot I did not look first). So I need to rename the wikiqoutes page I just made in order for the pages to link to one another but an at a loss as how to accomplish this. Any help with this matter will be welcome. Nubula 01:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Renaming a page can be done with the tab near the top of the window that says "move" — I have already moved the page you mentioned. ~ Kalki 02:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Nubula 19:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have the same problem, but I can't find this "move" tab. Where exactly is it? Curator2000 09:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Newly created accounts don't get access to the 'move' function until their accounts are four days' old; this is to stop page move vandalism. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 17:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Stubs
I have come across many TV and Film pages that are listed as stubs. At some point along the line many of these have been expanded and cleaned up but there seems to be hesitation to remove the stub listing because most have been put up by scary admins.

Perhaps as a point of manners if you mark an artical as a stub check on it once in a while and remove the stub listing once the page has been cleaned. 203.97.94.126
 * You are invited to be bold and remove stub templates if you think appropriate. I am a non-scary admin.--Poetlister 17:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Haha. But to the original poster, you have nothing to worry about.  In cases such as that (editorial content), administrators are no different from people like you in terms of how much their opinion matters. :-)  The only reason that most are put up by scary admins is because those are normally the most active users.  Cbrown1023    talk   01:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Keyword and author
Shouldn't quotes be arranged by keyword and author? I find this frustrating.
 * What do you mean exactly? I have no idea what you would like. --Aphaia 17:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War
We repeat "we accept only pithy quotes, particularly from copyrighted works", if I recall correctly. And pithiness is definitely of significance for copyrighted works, because we should have a good reason to quote them as well as should attribute them to its source properly. I think it nutshell for our future policy, WQ:EDP or WQ:NONFREE. Otherwise we should cast away all fairuse materials, as far as I understand on the Board resolution in this March.

On the other hand, not every Wikiquote contributor agree with us. There might be many editors who have never visit WQ:VP - specially among the editors who concerns only their interests, in some cases, one or two favorite articles. But as a project, we should have them understand our basic ideas and policies, for having them keep editing within the requirements we should follow.

Statistics] says we have many articles mainly edited by unregistered users, in other words, who are not sure to share the concerns on the above. One example is Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War, only 5% of the whole editors of this articles are registered. I heard from a friend who is also a player of this game that they issue periodical support materials and that would be partly why this article is frequently expanded. There is a concern about proper sourcing, but another concern might be more serious. Many of those quotes found on the article don't look like pithy. For example, I have no clue why "Yes!" can be a pithy quote. And this is quoted without any remark, without its context.

So a question - how can we handle it and make it a legitimate article of Wikiquote? Does anyone have an idea? --Aphaia 19:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Delete it. Long time ago I put a copyvio-notice at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Modernizing_Ghanaian_Fisheries:_The_Need_for_Social_Carriers_of_Technology - it was no reaction. These quotes are excerpts from a copyrighted book. I think there are hundreds or thousands similar copyvio articles. The board sleeps but one cannot give the guarantee that it will never wake up concerning WQ --Histo 22:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It it still content based problem, and the subject itself is notable enough. I trimmed some - eh many unpithy quotes, though there are still massive quotes. Let' see what happens next. --Aphaia 05:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion trial
I propose three month trial of Proposed deletion. Precedent discussions are found at Wikiquote talk:Proposed deletion. I thank all feedbacks until today and have tried to include them. If I miss your suggestion, it isn't intended and I'm happy to consider your idea again with you.

This trial includes those relevant trials:
 * new revision of Deletion policy: draft is found at Wikiquote talk:Deletion policy
 * new addition of Deletion review: draft is found at Deletion review/Draft

All new additions (templates, categories) are listed at user:Aphaia/Prod.

As the beginning date of trial, I propose September 10. I am open to opinions, and if the community thinks it is not the time yet, I'd like to work for elaboration further.

Thank you for your feedback in advance! --Aphaia 09:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 19:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that. :-)  Cbrown1023   talk   01:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems unexceptionable - go for it.--Cato 21:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it.--Jusjih 11:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

VfD
Just a thought - "To ensure an extra pair of eyes, an article should not be deleted by the same person who placed the tag on it." Should we apply that to VfD? That's no problem if there's 100% consensus on VfD, but if there's the slightest dissent then someone else ought to close.--Cato 20:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Some projects make it rule: the nominator is strongly discouraged to delete the page. I know a project more rigid where even voters are discouraged to perform the deletion. I think the idea behind such a convention as good. The question is: are our team large enough introduce this restriction? How do you think, folks? --Aphaia 05:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't possibly have a rule that if you vote you can't delete, as most admins vote on most VfDs. I think we could cope with "openers don't close".--Cato 06:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We rather would like to see anyone vote or give an opinion. The rule or recommendation "openers don't close" is sensible. We can just try to follow it on an individual basis? Even from now? --Aphaia 10:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is a good idea but I'm not sure it needs to be a strict rule. When a VDF vote is 100% consensus with several editors commenting, run its full time, and the opener is already closing a batch of overdue VFD, I do not think they need to skip an obvious deletion vote for formalities sake. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 20:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with FloNight on this one; when there's some contention in the VFD, I think it makes sense for the person who opened it not to be involved in closing it, since the act of nominating connotes an interest in seeing the page deleted. However, since we're only supposed to delete pages where there's a "rough consensus" (WQ:DP states that there's no hard-and-fast rule about what constitutes consensus, but lists 2/3 as one indicator while noting some people prefer a stronger leaning), I don't think there's any harm in having the person who nominated the page close the vote when the consensus is clear (e.g., numerous votes cast, all favoring deletion). I think that the philosophy that "openers don't close" should apply more to the proposed "prod", where having someone else do the actual deletion ensures that at least other person has seen the page and made their own judgment about it's deletion-worthiness. —LrdChaos (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's 100% in favour of deletion there can be no objection to the opener closing it. Once it isn't unanimous, it's difficult to know where to draw the line.--Cato 21:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, then what is the difference between the opener and voters? Each of them has a certain interest or not? --Aphaia 06:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that's a good point. I don't really see the difference between the nominator and the rest of the participants, except that the nominator had the idea first. I would point out that it is not uncommon for nominators to avoid making specific recommendations, or even simply ask if the article can be improved rather than deleted. The real issue is whether the admin who closes the discussion does so in a way that supports his/her position. (I always feel comfortable closing discussions where the consensus does not follow my opinion, as it's clear that I'm following procedure and not my feelings.) The only potential problem is when the closer declares a consensus that happens to agree with their opinion, and then only if the decision is a close call. Perhaps all we need to do is recommend that any admin can close a discussion with an overwhelming consensus (which is nearly always true anyway — we still get a lot of "delete-bait" articles), but only a non-participating admin should close discussions that are near a two-thirds boundary or have many complicated positions whose consensus is hard to judge. (We'd still want an exception in case all the admins participated, as someone has to close it.) We may have enough active admins now that, if we're all watching WQ:VfD, a non-participant will notice when a discussion is past due for closing and could use a disinterested closer. If not, one of the participants (admin or not) can always ask an non-participating admin to close it (or they can post a request to WQ:AN). In the exceptionally rare cases where even the disinterested party might be accused of bias, anyone could file a request at our draft Deletion review, under "Candidates", or again at WQ:AN if they don't feel comfortable using the draft policy page. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah sounds logical :) So let me summarize the discussion until today,
 * Admins are expected to close VfD discussions along the consensus, not their own feelings (and until today we feel no problem about that, hopefully).
 * We are okay to see anyone including the nominator close a VfD discussion which reached an unanimous consensus.
 * It could be said too on discussions which reached rough consensus.
 * However if a VfD discussion is in a dispute, and the rough consensus (conventionally over 2/3 of participants) can be challenged, all the participants are strongly encouraged to wait for a non-participant admin to close it.
 * As corollary, everyone who has an opinion are expected to give their opinion, not saving it or keeping it in thier cupboard.
 * Anyone can ask for review at Deletion review, if they are not satisfied with the declared result.
 * I feel the above is almost an unwritten but established convention, even we are not fully aware, rather than brand-new proposal, except "however..." part . I haven't remembered any dispute about "biased closing". And I like to see a good convention written down. Thoughts? --Aphaia 09:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with all of this. My example above intended to show that often the opener and the closer could be the same editor. It was not intended to be the only situation where the opener and closer could be the same person. Even if not stated, the closer is likely to have an opinion about whether the entry should be deleted or not. More often than not, it is going to be the same as the vote as most often there is near consensus between editors by the time the vote closes. In the rare instances when there are significant differences of opinion, a non-involved admin is the best person to close since they are in a better position to read all the discussion comments and come up with an unbiased decision about whether there is consensus to delete. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 11:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to close the discussion I started then! Yes, Aphaia's proposals are eminently sensible and ought to be codified somewhere.--Cato 21:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for comments, it is mostly your own input and Jeff's, I just summarized the discussion on the above :) Kudos to you two, rather than me in my opinion. Anyway where would we like to write it down? On WQ:VFD? WQ:DP? Or in a wider scope, on Voting (ancient draft)? --Aphaia 11:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say Deletion policy, since we don't have a specific guide for admins. The top section of WQ:VFD is more for all VfD participants and so should be kept short and to the point (since it's hard enough to get folks to read it anyway). But we expect admins to be thoroughly versed in WQ:DP, and can refer others who question why someone did or didn't close a discussion to WQ:DP. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And now we have also "how to close a discussion" (technical side) written by you on WQ:AN, Jeff! Maybe it is the time to update our old WQ:DP, adding our oral tradition and accepted wisdom :) --Aphaia 17:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Mobile/PDA Browsers
What's the best way to bring in one or more WikiQuote pages into a PDA browser or offline viewer such as iSilo?

I'm afraid that the Monobook style, which I prefer for online usage, would go past the 320x320 Palm screen. I just want the list of quotes, not all the navigation.

--Joe Sewell 01:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Songs within Movies
I'm sorry if this is covered somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

If we are working on a regular movie, not a musical or something, and a character sings a song, should we put the lyrics under the character's name, or as their own little section, like dialogue is?

{Not the whole lyrics, but certain parts)

--Chokolattejedi 04:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah good question. I don't feel inappropriate, rather it could be a remark "xx sings [song]]", unless the tune is created for that movie". But it is my personal impression. --Aphaia 13:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

welcome template
What's the welcome template for welcoming IP adresses? -- C  ( talk )  16:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC) 

It is Welcomeip. Other welcoming templates are found at Template messages/User talk. --Aphaia 17:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Requests?
Theirs an area that shows a bunch of Books Movies ex that people requested to be made into quote pages How do you request a page on a certain Book Movie Video game ex? LadyBonBon 02:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for review: Blocking policy revision draft
I ask you for review of Blocking policy/Draft. Both new additions and replacements are colored in red. Removed part is strike. The current version is Blocking policy.

I appreciate Cbrown1023 and Herby for their feedbacks, and will very appreciate your opinion also :)

Please review the proposed revision and give your opinion on its talk. Thanks! --Aphaia 02:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"Insert" buttons under the edit window
Hi, I recently edited English Wiktionary, and found their "Insert" buttons classified by script, like "Template", "Latin" "IPA" "roma-ji" ...(go and see). It makes me easy to find the letter I would like to use (in other words: the current unclassified table makes me difficult to find them). How about importing 'tionarians' way into our project? Thoughts? --Aphaia 10:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If you find it helpful, then others likely will also. I can't see any reason not to try it. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 11:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is, I cannot figure how they got it sorted out. A mere copy of MediaWiki:Edittools doesn't work. Could anyone please figure it out? --Aphaia 11:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Try copying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Edittools. My main interest is    .--Inesculent 12:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, but enwiki doesn't sort them out with the selector (better than us, though). Having DEFAULTSORT: is a nice idea. I'll take care of it asap. --Aphaia 13:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The code on English Wiktionary requires supporting JavaScript to create the selector box that can be found at wikt:MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Particularly, it needs,  ,  , and. You'll also need to call  using. Mike Dillon 15:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Note also that you probably want the dynamic version from bs:MediaWiki:Monobook.js instead. See wikt:WT:GP.  --Connel MacKenzie 17:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

LiquidThread demo website
via wikinews-l: you may find it interest: LiquidThread demo --Aphaia 11:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends
Another "whole copy syndrome" article. As far as I know, 2/3 sections were the whole copy of a certain episode, when I noticed. I removed many sections, and trimmed some, but there are still many sections with the whole copy. Most of those whole copies were added by anon(s), who I suspect are identical to their common feature of weird punctutation "word+one space+one punctuation mark+no space+the next word". Please help it trim. And let us give opinions what do you think the best as our next step, thanks! --Aphaia 12:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:Welcome improvment
My suggestion:
 * To add an encouragement/recommendation to customize their signatures, if their username is in non-latin scripts.
 * If we are afraid it is too complicated for newcomers, we could recommend them to add latin transcription to their user page instead.

I guess you may have your own recommendation. Please let us know to each other :) --Aphaia 02:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Password hacked....Email not yet said....Pissed user....
I...I...I dont know what happened beu my paaswords dont work! I ONLY use one and that password is ******! I need someone to help me Asap! --Akemi 15:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This user, who claims to be identical with User:Saikano, banned editor from English Wikipedia, is blocked indefinitely due to his disruptions (and no productive editings). Please note this user had been always informed it couldn't happen technically. All sysops are invited to review his contribs and think it inappropriate, to lift it up.  --Aphaia 15:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Templates for sourcing quotes ?
Hey guys!

I plan on adding quotes I put on fr.wikiquote (where I come from so sorry for my English ;-)) on this wikiquote. As you may or not know, the French wikiquote is extremely strict regarding to the sources of quotes, and thus we have created templates to standardize the sources and tell us when they are not enough detailed. So I am wondering whether there are some templates to source different kinds of quotes (songs, books, speeches,...) to have some kind of uniform rendering ?

Thanks for your help :-) chtit dracotalk 19:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm... not that I know of... :-( There are Templates that outline the formatting of pages and where sources should go.  But none of the magical things in the Template: namespace. :-)  Cbrown1023    talk   23:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a few "magic" templates, imported from WP:en, in this category. You'll find the documentation for those (,   …) in their talk page.  It's used in only 142 articles, though, and in most cases only for one quote in this article, so you can't say it gives uniform rendering, but at least it does some rendering. Manuel Menal 07:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * mhm ok I'll try using those then :-) Thanks for your answers! chtit dracotalk 08:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Category:Football players, Category:Soccer players, Category:Football (soccer) players,...?
Hey all

Today a new user replaced Category:Soccer players by Category:Football players (see Special:Contributions/The_Daddy) without any prior discussion. However having a category named Football players is quite ambiguous, due to the number of different footballs in the world and the different uses of the word in different countries. On en.wikipedia, this problem has been resolved by the use of a category named Football (soccer) players. So Mmenal and me agreed (on IRC #wikiquote) that this was probably the best solution. We both have a bot on this project, so we can replace the categories easily. Any comments ?

chtit dracotalk 12:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Using the same category designation as Wikipedia in this regard is probably a good idea. ~ Kalki 13:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Done using DragonBot. I blanked Category:Football players and Category:Soccer players, could a sysop delete them ? Thanks. chtit dracotalk 09:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it too late to comment? Soccer players seems entirely clear and Football (soccer) players is unnecessarily cumbersome. Surely we don't have to emulate Wikipedia in everything.--Poetlister 10:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Soccer players seems like a strange name, considering most of the countries where soccer is popular say football or something like that (Football in UK & France, Fútbol in Spain, Futebol in Portugal/Brazil, Fußball in Germany). I'd guess many, many non-native speakers like myself don't even know the word soccer.
 * Thus, I think Football (soccer) players is a good name, because it's unambiguous and clear for everybody. Manuel Menal 21:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Short category names are admirable, but not when the violate the expectations of most of the audience. I have to go with Wikipedia on this one. Perhaps we should have a category redirect for Category:Soccer players to Category:Football (soccer) players, since, as Poetlister points out, the former is unambiguous, and because it is likely (as much as any category name is) to be typed in by U.S. fans. I'm not sure what to do about Category:Football players, except perhaps to make the two variations subcategories of it. As can be seen right now in Category:Football players, whatever we do, we aren't preventing editors from placing people erroneously in these categories anew, and that wouldn't change even if we deleted them (as they'd just show up as redlink categories, without descriptions or parents). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just for your consideration, another voice from non native from a country there is no professional league of American Football, but Soccer's.
 * "Football" doesn't sound as definition - it sounds undefined for Japanese. But under influence of world "soccer" scene with which Japanese soccer fans interact, it may be used in the meaning of soccer. Very few people think it "American Football".
 * "Soccer" is without ambiguity. "Associated Football" might work too, it sounds a bit formal though.
 * American Football is always "American Football" - in most common usage, it is referred abbreviated, as "Amefuto" (that is partly why football couldn't be considered as American one - morphologically they are called in different names).
 * I suppose Americans and British may have their own opinions and feelings, but we would like to take into an account that this project is international and many non-native participate? From this point, unless we keep it as disambig, I am hesitate to keep ambiguous category "Football players" - it may mean different things for different people. In the same reason I am not so much a fan if "Soccer Players"; for Europeans it might not work well. --Aphaia 02:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that using Wikipedia's category Category:Football (soccer) players is the best possible solution for an English speaking wiki where both terms are used. Redirecting Category:Soccer players to Category:Football (soccer) players is user friendly. Also think that the best approach is to make Category:Football players be a parent cat with both cats, Category:American Football players and Category:Football (soccer) players, as subcategories. Doing it this way will lead to the least confusion and is acceptable to most fans. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 11:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I endorse FloNight's proposal. It's a little cumbersome, but error-proof.--Cato 21:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I endorse FloNight's proposal too. As sidenote, we have already Category:American football players. --Aphaia 03:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * +1 (and sorry for my absence, I blame the 1st week of university and all the work it entails...[[Image:Face-smile.svg‎|20px]]) chtit dracotalk 19:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for endorsements: Blocking policy/Draft
Since I think the draft Blocking policy/Draft frozen enough to ask for community approval, I'm requesting for endorsement from English Wikiquote community. This request opens at least one week, and three endorsements with no objection will be considered as a communal support.

If you think this draft is okay to be a new replacement with the current |WQ:BP, please put your endorsement on its talk page. Thanks for your attention! --Aphaia 17:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: Since it has been reviewed more than one week, I think we can close it very soon (even now, perhaps). However I am not sure if every active user take a look to it, I would like to keep it open for one more day. If you haven't, but regularly used blocking tool, please give a look to Blocking policy/Draft. Thanks! --Aphaia 01:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:Wikipedia
Does anyone else think it confusing to see the word "Wikipedia" twice in a row on the Wikipedia link template, as seen here?:    Shouldn't the "Wikipedia" on the left be an emblem and not merely a word?- InvisibleSun 22:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is a bug or just something wrong ... it is a link to the image, as you suggested ... I don't know why it has happened (or why it continues so long: I found it first just a half day ago, and it was on another project). It should be a logo, when it works. --Aphaia 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've notice similar glitches on Wikipedia and on some of the images on pages here in the last day or so, so I assume there is some kind of software or server problem occurring. ~ Kalki 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed it yesterday but thought it was a local problem. Seems OK now.--Cato 21:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Avatar: The Last Airbender: or the original research on Wikiquote in gereral
Another article edited mainly by anons. I gave a look to it and impressed with its volumn: 148,622 byte for 40 episodes (2 seasons). Also some sections (quotes from episodes particular) seem to me quite long ... I don't know this work so I am not sure, but for some of them I wonder if they are rather extracts copied the half of the targetting episodes or over. I wonder if those "quotes" are really quoted frequently by the ordinary Americans (view of quotability). Otherwise it could turn easily int a fansub or so - or "the original research" which our sister project Wikipedia tries to avoid. "I like it" is not a sufficient reason to cite a part of words as quote in my opinion: Recently I wonder if we could bring "quotability" as a explicit criteria and consider if the quoted part is referred in somewhere else than on this project. --Aphaia 07:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This show was created basically to move product (there is an associated LEGO toy line). I believe the episodes are 22 minutes or so each plus commercials (half hour episodes) so it could well be that these are large chunks of the screenplays. Personally, I'm not sure there's anything "pithy" from any of it, I've never quoted anything from it! but that's just me, and I'm 35+ years beyond the target demographic. ++Lar: t/c 10:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Mickie James
A VfD was started by an account that Kalki rightly blocked. However, this article should be deleted. Is it OK if I start a VfD?--Cato 21:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyone can nominate an article for deletion, even anonymous editors. Admins rarely ever remove nominations, and almost always because they are clearly bad-faith nominations. (There have been a few procedural removals that were worked out in other ways.) As far as I can recall, the Wikiquote editors in each case had clearly demonstrated vandalism, impersonation, or prank editing, making a bad-faith assessment fairly uncontroversial. Such a nomination removal should not be interpreted by anyone as a comment on the nominated page itself, either good or bad. Anyone is welcome to renominate a page in this situation based on their own argument for its deletion (or even just to focus community attention on improving it). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor glitch
I noticed a small problem with Special:Logs. In the drop box, the very first option says: &lt;renameuserlogpage&gt; I was wondering if this could be fixed. --Virana 21:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be fixed, both locally and globally (it means, it happens elsewhere for now). I prefer to keep it here for a while and find someone who can fix the MediaWiki CVS repository for the next version. So .. is it better to go to bugzilla? (Hopefully someone reported it already..) --Aphaia 01:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to be gone now. --Virana 21:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyright question
Hello, I'm new here (not nearly so new elsewhere). I have a question about copyright: if you type something in from a book or other copyrighted source, how much can you quote without infringing copyright?

I'd also like to know how Wikiquote handles translations: must the source translations be in the public domain, or can more recent translations be used with attribution? If need be, I can translate quotes with varying degrees of ability, but I'd still like to know.

This information really should be included in the FAQ. Thanks. --Kyok o 23:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You ask two excellent questions, Kyoko. First, copyright is a hard subject to summarize in a few words, but the practical means we use to avoid copyright infringement, in a sentence, is to always try to keep each quote to the minimum portion needed to convey a terse, memorable idea. For some further clarification, including how to avoid excessive excerpting from works, see Copyrights (which is still being developed) and look at some of the discussions on its talk page.


 * Translations are another complicated area. The current state of Wikiquote is that we have many non-English quotes that aren't translated (bad), many that are translated solely by a Wikiquotian (a contested area), some that have sourced translations (ideal), and some that have only the English representations without the original (less than desirable). The one thing I can say for sure right now is that, if you're going to source the translations, follow the same practices about sourcing (see the also-developing Sourcing and Citing sources), and that if the original isn't large enough to be a copyright violation, the translation probably isn't either.


 * Finally, I agree that these issues should have a brief summary with pointers to details at FAQ, which is probably overdue for a serious expansion and reorganization. I am starting a personal list of many questions that people ask that could be briefly addressed there, but I probably won't be able to take any action on it for many weeks. Meanwhile, I suggest to everyone that if they feel something should be added to WQ:FAQ, and don't wish to be bold by adding it themselves, feel free to post a request for the addition at Wikiquote talk:FAQ. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the responses. I understand more or less how the concept of fair use is applied on Wikipedia, but here at Wikiquote, where source texts aren't being studied or used to illustrate a point, I think a claim of fair use is less defensible.


 * Is there a category of quotes that are untranslated? --Kyok o 13:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

For your second question, basically no, since we don't collect non-English quotes. It should go to our sister project in other languages. However, as working place, there is a category generated by a template translate. But again, basically editors are not to be expected to post untranslated quotes. Thanks. --Aphaia 13:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I just wanted to say that I'm at the same place as Kyoko where I'm not sure about how to handle non-English quotes being translated into English and posted at en.wikiquote. Some one rely should write a policy about this. Thanks. --Steinninn 15:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Having trouble searching
Bluntly, it doesn't seem to work.

I type in the first 5 words of the quote I'm looking for, hit Search (I did read the blurb about the difference between Search and Go), and get 432 results.

OK, go back, search again using the first 12 words of the quotation I'm looking for. And I get the exact same 432 results. This hardly seems right.

But WTH, I open the first result, and use my browser's search function to search for the first 5 words. Gee, they're not in there! Then why was this article in the list of results?

Obviously, I'm either doing something wrong, or misunderstanding what Wikiquote is supposed to be.

But I read the sections "What Wikiquote is" and "What Wikiquote is not", and it does seem to be a place to look up a quotation that one remembers only part of.

So, I don't know.

Suggestions, please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Possum (talk • contribs) 22:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Possum, it would be easier to address your question if you could provide the specific details of what you're trying to find. This might allow us to determine why the different words are producing the same results, and would probably also make it possible to give specific advice and tips. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

WelcomeBot on holidays
Since September 16, WelcmeBot seems to be on holidays. --Aphaia 00:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

WQ:VP is a football player?
Hi, the Village Pump is currently listed in the category "Football players." I tried to remove the category but for some reason, I don't see it. on the edit page here. Ripberger 01:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This has now been fixed. ~ Kalki 02:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Three square meals
Who was it that said something along the lines (the quote is always mangled) of: "Any society is ever only three square meals from revolution"69.140.102.62 04:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC) I've got one claim of Dumas and two of Trotsky - one of which is MSM: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060617/ai_n16495253/pg_4 Anyone have a specific citation? 69.140.102.62 04:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't yet found an authoritative source for this quote, but I've seen many folks claim quotees without sources, including the article you cite. Mark Burgess, in his 2002 book Analytical Network and System Administration: Managing Human-Computer Systems, says that "The Romans are reputed to have claimed that civilization is never more than three meals away from anarchy". Google Book Search, which can usually be counted on to ferret out old famous sayings, seeems oddly silent on this subject, possibly because of paraphrasing. (For one thing, I suspect the "three square meals" is a mutation; it was probably "three meals" or something even less precise.) Neither Trotsky nor Dumas seem to be quoted on the subject of "three square meals" (or "three meals") and "revolution" in its digitized content.


 * The earliest original quote I found so far on this subject is the following, although it doesn't quite make the famous point:
 * Then, and not until then, did I realize that the spirit of liberty does not exist in hungry men. People talked about a day coming when the people would become so hungry and desperate that they would rise in a revolution and sweep all before them. Such a day will never come. Hungry men may fight, but it will be for a bone—not for liberty. The perpetuity of liberty rests with those who eat three square meals a day.
 * I've found other related tidbits, but still haven't run across a solid, succinct version of this famous saying. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've found other related tidbits, but still haven't run across a solid, succinct version of this famous saying. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Should I create a new page?
I'm new here so I thought I'm not sure what to do. See, I know some qoutes my a guy named Steven J. Barnes. The only problem is that there's no page here or anywhere else on him. I want to post him but I'm not sure if I should because there's no reference to him online. Should I create a new page on him or should I use another existing page or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Negifreak (talk • contribs) 23:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It depends on who your Steven J. Barnes is. As MosheZadka pointed out on your user talk page, Wikiquote collects quotes from notable people and creative works. If Mr. Barnes is someone who hasn't yet achieved published prominence (e.g., articles about him, works written by him) in some field, he probably wouldn't merit a Wikiquote article, just as he wouldn't be a likely subject of a Wikipedia article. You are welcome, however, to include quotes from such folks on your user page (as I see you've already done), subject to a few restrictions (see Userpage). If you feel this person is sufficient notable to have published, verifiable quotes included at Wikiquote, you are welcome to start a new page for him. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Question: Jon Stewart vs. The Daily Show
I've been trying to clean up the Jon Stewart page a bit, and I was wondering: To what extent do The Daily Show quotes belong there? I'm talking mainly about the scripted portions of the show here, as opposed to quotes from the unscripted interviews. There are at least several duplicate quotes across the two pages, and while it's true that Jon said the lines and I suppose to an extent people associate them with him, he didn't necessarily write them. Do such quotes have a place on Jon's page, or should they be solely on The Daily Show page? 220.237.40.198 23:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that they belong on The Daily Show page. Then you could put a "See Also" section on Jon's page, with a link to the show's page. ~ UDScott 13:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Should we have lists?
I have flagged List of Manga/Anime Show in English‎ for deletion on the grounds that we don't have lists. It should be easy to handle this by a category. However, I am having second thoughts. There is a List of television shows and a List of people by name. I find the latter useful. Views?--Cato 20:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * On further thought, I've removed the Prod.--Cato 21:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

DANE GUNDERSON
Dane Gunderson is a man of many strengths. He has overcome many obstacles in his life including breaking his thumb, chipping a tooth, and overcoming a disease called ITP. While he was in the hospital for his disease, he overcame many drugs including chemotherapy, steroids, windroh, and IVIG. Dane has also been known for his friendlyness towards others. He has over 500 friends and many people respect him. If you do not know Dane Gunderson, check out his facebook or Instant Message him at Bballplaya72489 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.214.235.75 (talk • contribs) 01:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There are many remarkable people in this world whose tales have not made it into widespread publication. Fans and supporters of such people have an unparalleled opportunity these days to make these folks known to the world by the ready availability of blogs, personal websites, and other Internet-based self-publishing mechanisms. However, the Wikimedia projects are not a vehicle for this kind of material. Their purpose is to collect material from their chosen area (factual info, quotations, definitions, complete documents, news, etc.) that have obtained some notoriety in the world, verifiable by previous publication in reliable sources.


 * If Dane Gunderson and his quotes have achieved this notoriety, you could create an article for him here. Otherwise, I would suggest Wikia's Biographies project, which has a more comprehensive goal. (I haven't dealt with them yet, but I'm sure they can give you more information.) If this person or his family is still alive, though, I recommend you first ensure that they wish to have this personal information made public. Many well-meaning friends and family don't realize the potential harm they may do their loved ones by making these details available to the entire electronic world, which includes people and organizations who sift through websites solely to collect information to use for phishing crimes. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Quiz extension
I just finished setting up the Wikinews quiz for this week, and it occurred to me that you could do a pretty fun quiz on quotations too. Who said "foo"?, etc.

Most people who come to one of the wiki projects read far more than they originally intended as they end up browsing through material. A quiz is a good way to have a starting point that you may have to guess at, but you learn something.

Any takers? Or is this a bit to frivilous for Wikiquote? --Brian McNeil / talk 11:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The Jewish Quarter of Kiev or the Jewish quarter of Kiev?
In the body of an article, which usage is appropriate when you're referring to a specific place?

It seems correct to say he lived in the Jewish Quarter of Kiev, is it then appropriate to say that he simply lived in Jewish Quarter? Would he alternatively live in the Jewish quarter?
 * Definitely the Jewish Quarter, I'd say.--Cato 22:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconded.--Yehudi 11:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Spoken wikiquote
I'm amiss I can't find any spoken wikiquote type project here. Isn't poetry the best suited for a spoken project :) Well I am offering to do some recordings to jump start interest in this project butttttttttt I don't just want to aimlessly record any super long poem (such as Leaves of Grass which is my favorite). What would the recommendations be for recorded poems or what do people want to hear basically? This would be a good feature for the front page. Davumaya 03:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Most auxiliary projects (spoken text, RSS feeds, etc.) run into the problem that the community is still primarily focused on basic page editing (and mostly just additions at that). Rarely does anyone even respond to (let alone participate in) such projects. But you don't know until you try, of course.


 * Another consideration is that Wikiquote cites only highlights of works, not the entire works. Many poems here have only excerpts quoted, and those that are here in their entirety are likely to be trimmed at some point to avoid copyright violations and to ensure focus on the pithiest elements of the works. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What about for now I propose something that is a little more prominent for the Spoken project than just recording any article. How about for each Quote of the Day is there is an accompanied audio version of it? Davumaya 15:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My personal inclination is to say that sounds fantastic, and to point out that there is certainly no prohibition against adding such content. Cheers! BD2412 T 16:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of audio version QoTD thrilled me. --Aphaia 12:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have created a sound file for today's Quote, and uploaded it to the commons:



This could be used as a start, and I can upload a file for whatever is chosen today within a few hours. ~ BooKKeeper 19:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I created a file for today's Quote of the day, but will just be adding any more that I make to my talk page until some decisions are made as to where they should be placed.

1 Nathalia Crane

2 James K. Polk

If it is decided that they are to be used, I will commit myself to making them within an hour or two of the selections being made. ~ BooKKeeper 01:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good work. I would recommend including the name of the person who said or wrote the quotation.  - InvisibleSun 02:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I just added Q 2007-11-03 Wilhelm Reich.ogg to the Commons and to my talk page, and will henceforth name each file I create with the name of the author, as well as the date it was used as a Quote of the Day. There are pronunciations of some names over which I might easily fumble, and this would also needlessly add a little to the file size, and probably demand many more attempts before I produce something satisfactory. I have made the 3 recordings I have posted after making anywhere from 3 to 11 attempts. I would prefer to focus on simply delivering the statements quoted as best I can. If there are users who cannot for some reason read the names of the files or of the author on the pages where links are placed, there should usually be but little problem in someone reading the name to them, if they have access to the files at all. ~ BooKKeeper 00:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have placed the latest sound file on the QOTD page, so that it appears on the main page. It looks better than I feared it might. It might be good to place only links to the sound file's page on some of the other QOTD pages though, and perhaps on the author's pages (below the quotes used for the QOTD). ~ Kalki 00:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * With these changes, it seems like the Main Page heading is getting rather long. (On my display, I can't even see any of the "Selected Pages" without scrolling.) One thing I think we should do is to remove the old Categorybrowsebar, since we now have the categories in our "wikiquote links" pane in the left margin.


 * To reduce the vertical space used by the new QotD soundbite, I've created an experimental page, User:Jeffq/Experiments/Qotd-sound-mainpage, that displays two versions of a wikitable-based (instead of div-based) structuring that puts a short version of the play button on either the left or the right. Could everyone take a look at this page to see if this looks reasonable? Thanks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I replaced the original central button with the suggestion for the button on the left. I think this looks the best of the available options. ~ Kalki 02:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Old prod categories.
Category:Proposed deletion as of 10 October 2007 still exists, although it is empty (and should never be occupied again). Is there any reason to keep it (and other similarly expired categories) around? Cheers! BD2412 T 01:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've typically just speedy-deleted these, because as you say, it's never likely to be occupied again once all the prod'd pages for that day have been dealt with. I figure it's a sufficiently common and non-controversial deletion that there's no point in going through a VFD for each of those, or even waiting the seven days ordinarily required for speedy-deleting a category. —LrdChaos (talk) 03:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I see no reason not to treat this as a "housekeeping" case (G3) under Speedy deletions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * While our WQ:SD says emptied categories have to be kept at least seven days before deletion, I personally think there is no problem to delete prod-categories just at the instance they're emptied as a housekeeping case per LrdChaos. We even can add a clear CSD case of emptied prod related categories. --Aphaia 13:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd rather not add new cases or get bogged down in listing every single thing that might be considered "housekeeping" when there can be no controversy over these deletions. While our policy pages often need some expansion, I feel that everything we add only makes the policies more cumbersome to read and understand, so each expansion should have a clear benefit that outweighs the intimidation of ever-longer and more complex instructions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do we have these categories anyway? Isn't it a rather pointless feature of the PROD system?  Will we ever have so many PRODs going at once that we need to list them by day? Poetlister 16:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's because PROD's have a time limit, so we'll know everything from a particular day can be deleted. However, there are not even so many that a manual check is inconvenient. Cheers! BD2412 T 22:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Project: Palgrave's Golden Treasury
I am beginning a project to ensure that every poem in Palgrave's Golden Treasury has a quotation entered here (unless there are no good quotations, which will be true of very few I suspect). Assistance will be very welcome.

There is obviously no problem with copyright here, since Palgrave died over 100 years ago. If the project is a success, we could extend it to more recent anthologies such as the BBC "The Nation's Favourite Poems". Would that cause a problem? We aren't listing the poems on a page, and I would hope that most poems in that book will already be covered. Poetlister 23:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem at all from including poems in the public domain. The poems themselves have been out of copyright for longer than the anthology, which is not even really being "copied". Cheers! BD2412 T 14:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I find the BBC "The Nation's Favourite Poems" a rather strange selection and some of the poems in it probably won't be worth quoting. After Palgrave I'd go for the Oxford anthology by Helen Gardner.--Yehudi 12:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I'll look into that. Poetlister 22:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm finally under way, and the project has justified itself already. We didn't have "Under the greenwood tree"! Poetlister 17:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends
There is a copyright concerning question, not yet unreplied. Anyone who has an opinion about this issue, they are invited to that talk :) --Aphaia 14:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

New article create buttons
Is there interest in adding buttons like User:Steinninn/Create into MediaWiki:Newarticletext, this would show up on the top of the page while editing new pages. To try it out, see edit is.wiktionary. Please keep discussions at MediaWiki talk:Newarticletext. Cheers. --Steinninn 03:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yale Book of Quotations and Wikiquote Again
The Yale Book of Quotations (Yale University Press) was published a year ago, and is widely considered to be the most accurate, comprehensive, and up-to-date quotation dictionary ever published, but I see only two mentions of it in Wikiquote. Let me renew my offer that if anyone wants to trace the accurate source of a quotation used in Wikiquote, they can e-mail me at fred.shapiro@yale.edu and I will attempt to help them.

Fred R. Shapiro Editor Yale Book of Quotations (Yale University Press, available through Amazon, Barnesandnoble and other online vendors)
 * Greetings Fred, are you offering to release the Yale Book of Quotations under the GFDL? We will gladly use it as a resource if we can do so without raising copyright concerns. It occurs to me, though, that we would source a quote to the source of the quote, not to another book of quotations. Cheers! BD2412 T 14:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, everyone: please see Village pump archive 10 for the previous history on this topic. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not offering to release The Yale Book of Quotations under the GFDL, just to attempt to respond to questions about quotation origins. The best thing, of course, would be if everyone on Wikiquote got The Yale Book of Quotations for Christmas, and used it to source quotations! Fred R. Shapiro, Editor, Yale Book of Quotations (Yale University Press)


 * In fact, I was tempted to treat myself to a copy of YBoQ early this year. But I used a library copy for some spot-checking, and I'm afraid I was not impressed with the info it had versus other souruces (see Village pump archive 14). As I said then, my effort was not a comprehensive examination, so YBoQ may very well be quite useful for our general research, but my findings kept me from going out and buying a copy for myself. Sorry 'bout that. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Within the foreseeable future, everything that is in the Yale Book of Quotations will surely find its way into this collaboratively edited free source, even if none of us refer to anything other than other free sources for guidance. The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train, and it's carrying free knowledge. Cheers! BD2412 T 20:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Before taking advantage of Fred Shapiro's kind offer Wikiquote editors might like to use the Limited preview facility for the Yale Book of Quotations available at Google Book Search. It might show you the entry you want. Antiquary 21:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to get into a detailed discussion with Jeff Q about the level of research in The Yale Book of Quotations, but it demonstrably exceeds that in the two standard quotation dictionaries (Bartlett's and Oxford) and, dare I say, demonstrably far exceeds that in Wikiquote. The example Jeff Q gives ("It'll play in Peoria") actually supports this point rather than challenges it. No one has ever found any evidence earlier than the Ehrlichman usage for this; authoritative reference works stick close to the documented facts rather than engaging in unproven speculation. Fred R. Shapiro, Editor, Yale Book of Quotations (Yale University Press)


 * Fred, I believe your heart is in the right place, but why not just release your work under the GFDL and email us a version from which we can copy and paste as needed? And better yet, why not sign up as a Wikiquote editor, and contribute directly? You can use your real name, and thereby be credited for your contributions. As it happens, I am an intellectual property attorney, and I recognize the desire to exercise the fullest extent of your 'rights' under the law, but the entire world of information is shifting to collaborative open platforms. It is those who put their information in this marketplace are the ones who will achieve the most enduring legacy among the next few generations to come. Also, even if you do not wish to edit, I encourage you to sign up for an account (it is quick and free) from which to post your future comments in this discussion. Cheers! BD2412 T 22:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fred, you are right to dare to say that Wikiquote's actual current sourcing is far below that of YBoQ or the usual primary quotation references. Since our last discussion, I've learned to use Google Book Search, and I'm dismayed to find that even it doesn't have a reference for the Peoria line earlier than Ehrlichman's ownership claim. While I'm sure it's a vaudevillian expression, we indeed have no source yet that says so. (What I wouldn't give for transcripts of vaudevillian routines or Fibber McGee and Molly!) Your position is essentially our official one as well. Now I'm really going to have to start digging. &#9786; Meanwhile, I'll shut up about YBoQ's usefulness unless and until I can spend some serious time using it for more research. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Email notification when user talk page changed
Do we have a compelling reason not to have the Preferences function "E-mail me when my user talk page is changed" enabled, or is it just a newer function that we haven't configured yet? I don't think we're so active a project that this would be a great server burden, and it certainly would help the community get responses from occasional editors (including semi-active admins like myself). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Commons has this function, but I do not know who and how it can be turned on.--Jusjih 15:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we need to ask a developer to change our "LocalSettings.php" file. According to the current mw:Extension:Email notification:
 * The sub-feature notification on user_talk page (UTP) changes could be enabled even for the largest WikiPedia, because the number of UTP changes is surprisingly low…
 * (Emphasis in the original.) It's not terribly clear (especially with the grammatical errors), but I deduce that there aren't so many folks using this feature, which only notifies when someone else changes your talk page, that it takes much effort from even the busiest wiki. So it would seem that English Wikiquote can handle this easily. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know MediaWiki has this function ... and support to ask devs to turn it on. --Aphaia 18:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea, we'd just need support here and then someone can open up a bug report.  Cbrown1023   talk   22:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If this is a performance no-brainer and doesn't add to the project's maintenance workload, how much support do we need to show before opening that bug report? If the above is sufficient, I'll be happy to initiate it, although I'd like to know the specific PHP variable(s) that need setting in order to make it simple for the person tackling the "bug". (I couldn't find it when I did some poking around Meta-Wiki and MediaWiki.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This should probably be enough. The relevant page on MediaWiki is Enotif, but I believe they have an easy way to do it (or at least abnormal ;-)) like just adding "enwq" to the locations where that extension is used (because it already exists for commons and meta).  I don't mind who opens up the bug.  Cbrown1023    talk   01:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I have just submitted a request for this change. Its status can be viewed at Bug 12295 on MediaWiki Bugzilla. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

User:BD2412/Bartlett's 1919 Index --> Wikiquote space?
I'd like to propose moving User:BD2412/Bartlett's 1919 Index into Wikiquote space as an "official" Wikiquote project. I see it as analogous to Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles. Does anyone else think this is worthwhile? Cheers! BD2412 T 16:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was thinking to ask you to move it/officialize :) --Aphaia 18:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a great idea! :-)  Cbrown1023   talk   22:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Good work, I say go for it. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 22:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, since there seems to be a general agreement (and a dearth of opposition), I will move it now. Cheers! BD2412 T 22:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This project is up and running, if anyone else would like to tackle a few. Cheers! BD2412 T 22:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I should specify, it is now at Bartlett's 1919 Index. Cheers again! BD2412 T 16:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion trial ended
Proposed deletion trial ended on November 10. Join the review, give your opinion to build the consensus what we'd love to do next. --Aphaia 07:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Logging out
Every time I log in, It logs me right back out. Like, I'll log in, and then, when I go back to the page where I was before, And I'm not logged in anymore! What's going on?
 * Sorry for the problems you've been having, you might be able to get more help on the public Wikitech-l mailing list or by opening up a bug report. If you do either of those, please make sure you include all relevant information like browser type and computer system.  Cbrown1023    talk   01:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Another article which has a tendency to become a whole copy of film/tv show script. I trimmed it down from 80KB+ to 50KB+. Now it is growing again over 60KB and most of its editors are anons. Thanks for your opinion in advance. --Aphaia 17:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Semi-protect for 72 hours. This is not something we should do often, but this is a special case.--Cato 22:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I semiprotected it for 1 week. Also some scenes seem to be wholly copied. If someone can trim it down, it will be appreciated. --Aphaia 15:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Request different username
Friends, is it possible to change my username? I wish to remove my dob, which I strongly regret publishing. smb 20:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, unless it is taken already. See WQ:AN for examples and your own request. --Aphaia 22:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

New topic
I know there is a pickup lines wikiquote article, but is there a Yo-Momma Jokes wikiquote article? --Sseballos 20:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, as you can easily find using the search box. Please feel welcome to start one.--Poetlister 23:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually though limited samples of comedians jokes are desirable on their pages, we have long discouraged generic joke-pages here, as the plethora of obscure "knock-knock" jokes and such would be overwhelming, and mostly not very notable, as I expect would also be the case with "Yo-Mamma" jokes. ~ Kalki 23:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose Wikibooks may be more welcoming those generic joke collections .. they have anyway already a bulb joke book (and perhaps two cows ones too). As one family we don't need to duplicate content. --Aphaia 11:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

How to reference a specific quotation via a URL?
Greetings. I would like to reference a specific quotation via a HTML URL. For example, I would like to edit a Wikipedia page and add a link to a particular quotation on Wikiquote. How would I accomplish this? Are individual quotations on a page of quotes indexed by a HTML anchor tag?

Here is a specific case. Winston Churchill quotations can be found at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

We can narrow down the list by referencing the section called The_World_War_II_years http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#The_World_War_II_years

BUT, how can I access a particular quotation within a particular section? Like this one: "We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it."

Wikiquote would be a lot more useful to me (and others) if we could use it as a library of individual quotations. I hope there's a way...

Thanks in advance, Paul


 * You can use span and div anchor tags: Put before the appropriate quote in the Wikiquote page, and then link to http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#Foo . At least I think that works. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 22:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fys is correct; I use that occasionally myself. Two notes, however. First, I suggest always using lowercase words with hypens (e.g., "foo-bar") which are far less likely to collide with article headings, which convert to similar HTML. (Headings and id tags are case-sensitive, even for the initial character, but headings by convention always start with an uppercase letter.) Second, bear in mind that this is an informal system, and editors have been known to remove tags from quotes, which would break these links.


 * The general issue is usually discussed as making quotes "atomic"; i.e., providing a means to reference each quote as a separate entity, which would standardize this kind of linking and make auxiliary efforts like fetching random quotes (instead of random articles) much easier. Unfortunately, the MediaWiki software isn't designed for this. Tagging each quote manually is also not really practical, simply because common Wikiquote formatting is already more complicated than common Wikipedia formatting. Our articles need formatting far more, and our editors use formatting far less than desirable.


 * There has been talk of doing something like French Wikiquote's formatting through templates, but that's a major change that would probably require a lot of support from the community, and would have significant impact on how we educate editors to add quotes. The benefits may outweigh the costs, though, so I expect we'll more discussion on this in the foreseeable future. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestions, Fys and Jeff Q. I can see lots of potential for added value if quotes were made "atomic." For example, registered WikiQuote users would then be closer to building "favorite quotes" libraries. If individuals could easily and simply construct their personal favorite quote libraries, we'd see more interest in WikiQuote, and more people would contribute their favorites. -- Paul

Stewards elections
Wikiquotians who are interested should take a look at the stewards election page on Meta. There are a strong bunch of candidates & I think it is right that all communities at least review the candidates. While it can be argued that Stewards are a little remote that are crucial to aspects of the day to day working of Wikis. Please take a look & if you are eligible please consider voting - thanks -- Herby talk thyme 11:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Also please see Stewards/confirm. It is a good chance to give current stewards your voice - either complaint or appreciation. --Aphaia 16:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * May I warn people not to try to oppose Lar. I've had a stream of messages here, on meta and by e-mail since I had the audacity to do that.--Cato 20:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd ask for some balance here. The stream on Meta appears to relate to the fact that you voted twice for Lar.  The stream here appears to consist of a comment that I made to a fellow Wikiquotian who I respected.  Obviously I am not privy to your email.  There are many views being expressed about the different candidates - my wish would be that those who wish to look, consider and express an opinion where they wish to.  Thanks -- Herby  talk thyme 20:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Balance, calmness and sanity. A bit off topic, some anons (or one person?) vandalized my user page on Japanese Wikinews, replace with that "Shame on you / Withdraw". And today an anon - a mail without signature of the poster (while contains his user name, pseudonym is still anonym imo) "asked" me the same thing. It is fair they express their opinion but there should be a limitation of manners. Personally I think those barely same to blackmail. May this kind of frenziness be not the industry of our community! On the other hand, I took Cato's concern a bit strange and not fully understand yet now but it seems still within the range of acceptable discussion. Shotly, I expect thoughtful attitude either supportive or challenging - tranquility and rational discussion just as we daily have here on our project. --Aphaia 23:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry if my message was unclear. My point was that, responding to Herbythyme's message above, I went and voted (including supporting Aphaia).  As is my right, I voted against Lar.  I then received several messages by various routes, which seemed critical of me for voting against Lar.  I am not claiming that it was harassment, though no doubt some editors would do so.  I did not vote twice for Lar; I voted once against him, then made a typo replying to a comment on my vote; it was obviously a typo, which I fixed promptly.  And I continue to support Aphaia.--Cato 21:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton
I just checked out these 2 pages and the contrast in tone between them doesn't give a good impression, I think. I'm a fairly newcomer to Wikiquote and a fan of Obama's BTW. Keep up the good work here. Steve Dufour 22:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to improve either or both of these articles. Poetlister 22:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I waste at least a couple of hours a day on Wikipedia and I am not sure if I want to do the same thing here. :-) Steve Dufour 20:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You might actually find it more productive wasting it here - we have much less vandalism, and are dealing with more concrete includability. Cheers! <font style="background:lightgreen">BD2412 T 22:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I might dig up a couple of critical quotes about Barack. Right now he is 100% positive and Hillary is about 80% negative. Steve Dufour 03:49, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and did that. I also started a page: E. R. Eddison. That was fun. Steve Dufour 08:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)