Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/Inceldom

Inceldom
Modern slang which is not even used by magazines given the MRA and pick up artist connotations that have become attached to it; the two quotes don't specifically use the portmanteau and can be added to the existing pages for celibacy, virginity or sexuality. There's a lot of slang we could have pages for but don't, even when the word has been used in famous works of literature such as Mark Twain's use of the N word in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. — CensoredScribe (talk) 18:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Vote closes: 19:00, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge with Celibacy and leave redirect.. W\&#124;/haledad (Talk to me) 21:25, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
 * A merge and redirect sounds like a fine solution to me (although I would not include the salamander quote). BD2412 T 22:03, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Striking !vote per improvements by GreenMeansGo. We should now keep the resulting page. BD2412 T 18:34, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep, if you do a search on the google explore trends feature you notice that the term "incel" has more traction than several other terms for which we have categories. including major categories such as LGBT. Incel is not the same as celibacy or virginity - it is very different; it denotes a state of deprivation and subseuquent anguish, which is not the case for celibacy nor virginity. Turnheew (talk) 18:33, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment it does come from a fascinating subculture with much written about and by them, a subculture with it's own unique terminology, like other subcultures, and it is an English word, though unlike chav it isn't in any major dictionary. My argument for why we shouldn't have this page wasn't very convincing; we do after all have a page for trigger warning, which also originates from the internet, and just because Wikiquote doesn't currently have a page for something doesn't mean that it shouldn't eventually. That said, the additional terminology that comes with this concept; Chad, Tyrone and Stacy are names, not words; although, some names become words, such as Nimrod of the bible. Differentiating between this slang and the hip hop slang scrub, may well be an eventual discussion on a Wikiquote talk page pending a page merger. Another term Wikipedia has a page for, but which has no actually meaningful parameters in its usage is gook, which could refer to a low class prostitute but is better known as U.S. military slang, which was applied in 1912 to people from Nicaragua before becoming a slur for Filipinos, Koreans, and Vietnamese people. It's also been used "to describe foreigners in general, including Italians in 1944, Indians, Lebanese and Turks in the '70s, and Arabs in 1988", with the definition of foreigner not actually specified. Another derogatory term applied to Italians is Wop, which like the N word is not something I expect to be given a page on Wikiquote. Here is a list of criminal slangsome of which has been around for a while yet failed to acquire official recognition in dictionaries acceptable as sources. I will note for any future discussions regarding this page's suitability for Wikiquote, that Wikipedia has a page for superhero, with super being another prefix, like involuntary, that can be added to create a seemingly new concept, but which in effect is a useless distinction for Wikiquote to attempt to be making, as there is no actual definition that distinguishes a superhero/superheroine from a hero/heroine, as many of the most famous heroes whether in mythology/religion or speculative fiction possess supernatural abilities. The only real distinction between the two concepts is that one is a trademark owned by two companies. I'm concerned that if this page is recognized by wikiquote than these other pages mentioned may as well; call it a slippery slope fallacy, a gateway word or lowering the bar. CensoredScribe (talk) 06:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Additional commentary a similar prefix that can be added to create potentially dozens of unnecessary new pages that would needlessly complicate finding quotations is vicarious, as in vicarious trauma or vicarious shame, which unlike involuntary celibacy are terms actually used in medical journals and news outlets, and not just used to refer to an organization that refers to themselves as such. For example: the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan refer to themselves as knights, however, just because they say they are knights doesn't mean Wikipedia would ever categorize them as being such, nor would self identifying as involuntarily celibate make it an objective categorization. If no one can objectively be categorized as involuntarily celibate than why have a page for a term that applies to no one? CensoredScribe (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this is problematic if given the right scope. There is a big difference between Incel and inceldom per se. The former article on en.wiki is about the online subculture, which is a thing that uncontroversially exists, and has attracted quite a bit of media attention. What is more existentially controversial is the state of being of involuntary celibacy. That's more of a grand social conspiracy theory bordering on a type of culturally emergent eugenics, of which the online subculture are proponents. It's not clear that that actually is a thing that objectively exists, and a big part of why the article on en.wiki was repeatedly deleted when the scope was about the state of being and not about the subculture. But there seems to be plenty of quotes to work with within the scope of the subculture e.g.,:
 * These online communities didn’t used to be so violently misogynistic and as obsessed with violence as they are now ... They essentially magnify these guys’ negative feelings and encourage them to feel hopeless. If a guy doesn’t feel like there’s much point in living, he knows that if he goes out and does something violent, he’s going to be celebrated by all these people on these message boards … I’ve been expecting more [incel attacks] for a long time.
 * [Incels] have to find a target other than themselves, meaning they don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. There’s a fatalistic mentality that can perpetuate itself in these circles. The more rejection you get, the more it feeds into this belief that you are unwanted … But there’s also a sense of entitlement. They are entitled to sex. They’re entitled to women liking them. And there’s a very limited sense of reality.
 * The word [incel] used to mean anybody of any gender who was lonely, had never had sex or who hadn't had a relationship in a long time. But we can't call it that anymore.
 * Misogyny isn’t new, and ideological misogyny isn’t new. Having a distinct movement that is primarily defined by misogyny is [fairly] novel.
 * There is a really interesting irony in the incel style of quasipolitics – they are both a response to and advocates of almost an Ayn Randian view of romance and human relationships. So they rail against the loneliness and the isolation and the individualism of modern life, but they seem to advocate it as well, in that they love the language of the strong triumphing over the weak. But they themselves are the weak.They’ll say how terrible it is that the left has won the culture wars and we should return to traditional hierarchies, but then they’ll use terms like "banging sluts", which doesn’t make any sense, right? Because you have to pick one. They want sexual availability and yet, at the same time, they express this disgust at promiscuity.
 * Having said that, content directly about "intra-sexual selection" is a big ball of original research and advocacy, and isn't really appropriate. In comparison, it would seem perfectly appropriate to have quotes about racism or the KKK as cultural phenomenon which objectively exist, but it's not really appropriate to have extended out-of-context quotes from phrenologists about how the size and shape of the "mongoloid" skull may or may not make them inherently inferior in some way. That would be its own type of original research and advocacy through biased content selection.
 * So in summary, keep, and move to Incel, and limit the scope to secondary coverage about the subculture and omit primary sources about the real or invented state of being.  G M G  talk  12:08, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I concur with GreenMeansGo's statement and vote to keep and move. I'd also like to thank them for the additional quotations. CensoredScribe (talk) 15:19, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Assuming that this is agreeable (it's hard to tell since it was suggested so late), I've taken the liberty of moving the page and adding the quotes per my comment above. Ping previous participants: User:Whaledad, User:BD2412, User:Turnheew.  G M G  talk  12:37, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that should be acceptable, . I would like to note that, although not a valid objection to the renaming and continued existence of this page, Wikiquote notably lacks coverage of many topics of a sexual nature, including pages the genitalia and most sexual fetishes and I feel this lack of effort is deliberate. Do we really need a page to differentiate notable quotes on hentai (assuming they exist) from animation and pornography? I'm pretty sure more people have heard about hentai than inceldom. No doubt there have been notable sources that have written on the more technologically primitive fetishes, even some of the seemingly more recently invented ones like robot and or furry fetishes which tend to have very strong conceptual parallels in mythology one would argue would warrant inclusion, (the metal maidens of Hephaestus and various zoomorphic figures like satyrs and centaurs, or the Ornithes Areioi, just to use Greek and Roman mythology as an example). More pertinently than arguing over whether love poems about pan belong next to psychological studies discussing the furry fandom, the difference (if any), between lolicon, shotacon, hentai and pedophilia is sure to be a discussion waiting to happen sometime down the line if we continue adding sexuality pages to Wikiquote. I would like to know just how many people would consider adding these nonexistent sex related pages to be an actual improvement, there's pages for individual makes of guns now, so I don't see why to exclude different varieties of sex, there's an inane amount of detail in both subjects. We should probably draw the line before creating pages for all the individual mechanical parts or genes though lest it vastly outnumber the pages for books and themes. This notably is not Wikipedia so we don't have to cover absolutely every single subject that they do. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:36, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm...I guess this is getting a bit off topic, but doesn't really hurt anything to do a bit of musing, and it could be helpful to organize our thoughts. I'd say there are a whole host of human sexuality related pages that could, and probably should be created. The main issue that seems to cause more problems than anything else, is that WQ currently seems to have comparatively little in the way of objective inclusion criteria for individual quotes. This leaves entirely too much discretion up to individual editors, and means that the end-state of a WQ page has more to do with who is editing it, than it does to do with the subject of the page itself. I'm not entirely sure how to fix that, but it is a problem what we will have to deal with at some point. I wonder if other language projects have come up with a solution to it that we have not yet found.  G M G  talk  22:25, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't want to take this off topic either, but right now I think the pages for guns, black people and vagina could very well end up mostly consisting of rap lyrics given the current lack of objective inclusion criteria to provide direction, and I take issue with the fact the self elected goal keepers of the page for guns allow all kinds of questionable rap lyrics from admittedly very high charting records, yet allow no anti-gun quotations from an an equivalently well selling Batman film, comic, or cartoon, is considered notable for inclusion. I think if this is based off number of people who have heard the quote from observing the source in it's entirety than something or rather Batman related on guns is probably notable, as are platinum record rap lyrics, that or neither source is notable simply because they are popular and there are additional criteria that exclude them. I have been sticking to movie reviews and science journals because newspaper circulation is calculated as is impact factor, though notably these are for the source as a whole not the individual quotations included in them; secondary sources are not actually provided for the vast majority of the quotes of any given page. I assume the general thesis in the introduction or conclusion is the most oft quoted part, though often it is some other aside somewhere in the middle. I assumed when I added the quotes from Fahrenheit 451 without a secondary source specifically quoting it to the the page for books that secondary sources weren't required, it's been a while since that happened, I apparently have multiple people intermittently going through my edits, and I assume that page is fairly frequently visited, including by the people who most revert me, so the lack of correction if this is indeed a problem seems a bit odd, though than again given how unclear Wikiquote can be, not really that surprising. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm going to copy this over to the Village Pump and reply there, since that may attract increased input from others.  G M G  talk  13:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge Outside of how easy it is to add a prefix to an existing page to get a new page, I still can't think of a particularly compelling reason for which I would vote no against having a page for this concept, given the other pages for loosely defined ideologies which may or may not have a basis in reality, however I'm also not comfortable endorsing this page as an improvement. The best I can come up with is that if Incel should really be distinct from celibacy, would that not imply Wikiquote should also have a page for racialism distinct from race and racism because there are groups that embrace racialism as a label who claim the concept is distinct from racism? Are we going to have a distinct page for racial separatism distinct from racism to dump quotes in support of Separate but equal? I think dividing pages into their most basic elements is a bad idea, there really shouldn't be distinct pages for black male children, black male adults, black female children and black female adults, nor should we be applying to people categories based off their racial casta. I really don't think we need to bother to distinguish this page from celibacy either, unlike the KKK this isn't an organization with an official representative to whom quotes can be attributed. I mean, why not have pages for cock blocked or damaged goods, those are both thematically similar and predate this concept considerably? Do we really want to cover all the same ground as Urban Dictionary? Do we have to have a page for every meme with a Wikipedia page? I've been accused of adding garbage before, but give the word and I'll create the page for All your base are belong to us, Lolcat and Leeroy Jenkins. What exactly still needs to happen for this discussion to close? It's been over half a year already since this discussion started. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:35, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This discussion doesn't even begin the problem of including quotes that don't specifically mention the concept in question, as well as what I think is even more problematic, the numerous quotations from speculative fiction made by characters who think no one will ever love them which heavily imply a state of celibacy in a way that doesn't specifically explain to the often younger audience what sex is. I'm pretty sure Rogue from the X-Men would meet the requirements given what happens when she touches people, before her it was Beast's thing, like the fairy tale character he shares a name with. Originally both The Thing and Tony Stark thought they had become hideous monsters from their disfiguring accidents, much less so as time went on; in the MCU it's an issue for the Hulk that is specifically mentioned in Avengers: Age of Ultron. This is more of a Marvel comics trope, but in DC, younger heroes such as Raven and Cyborg from the Teen Titans have avoided relationships for similar reasons and it is even rarely associated with Superman. There's lots of stories in fairy tales that thematically similar to this concept, notably transformation stories, it's suggested very few maidens would want to kiss a frog or a furry beast to release a curse, even when they can still talk and explain that they used to be a prince, and much like the sexist definition of inceldom being a hetero sexual male exclusive issue, it is very seldom a handsome man who must kiss a transformed princess unable to find true love's first kiss. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of melodramatic teen dramas and comedies from the 80's like Porky's, Weird Science, or Revenge of the Nerds where one of the characters state that they are never going to get laid. I think the wide range of subjects, from mass shooters to teenage superheroes, and from historical imperial court eunuchs to science fictional asteroid penal colonists is rather extreme and due to the lack of a definition of what it is we are even talking about to begin with. I really don't think the quotation about incels being similar to fascists and terrorists was ever intended to apply to a fictional freighted teenage girl with supernatural powers that saves the world and fights hate crimes on a regular basis but thinks she will die without ever knowing love. If we are going to have this page, which we shouldn't, than we should probably include all these quotations from fiction, in all fairness, given the rather high prevalence of the trope in works of literature. Keep in mind though, this isn't TV Tropes. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not totally clear what the problem is here. You favored keeping and moving above, and so the page has been moved, and refocused on the online subculture as the English Wikipedia article is.  G M G  talk  20:20, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * What's not clear to me is when the vote for this actually ended or if it's still going on. Right now it seems like it's month six or seven of sudden death overtime for what was supposed to be a discussion lasting a month or two maybe; right now it kind of seems like the next new person to chime in breaks the tie, although Votes for deletion says vote tallying isn't actually the deciding factor and suggests only a minimum of a week of discussion while providing no time estimate for the process or suggested maximum duration. This discussion could conceivably last many more years regardless of the level of participation in it, which I expect will remain minimal, as there's apparently no time limit on the voting. Even if dozens of new editors entered the discussion and voted unanimously one way or the other, I'm not sure that would actually get us any closer to this page being removed from VFD. I'm trying to think of another example of a formal voting processes that lasts an indeterminate amount of time, with an indeterminate amount of voters, but can't think of any, possibly due to how ridiculous of an idea that is. Jurys can deliberate for an indeterminate amount of time but the number of votes being tallied is set still, I'm not even sure how many administrators decide when a discussion on VFD is over. There are no pages for democrats or republicans as individuals or philosophies distinct from those political parties. If need be we can go through the discussions regarding these two pages and see what arguments, if any, were made regarding the lack of distinction being a good idea, I imagine those two pages would be much more frequently edited than any for inceldom. I've now made every argument I'm going to make at this point, if this page and the subculture category remain I presume the addition of pages for pimp, ho, rider, punk, jock, nerd, goth, punk, redneck, emo, preppy; as well the countless racial and sexual slurs that Wikipedia has pages for but which currently lack pages on Wikiquote. What other VFD discussions have lasted this long and how many more months/years is this discussion going to go on? It seems strange so few people have an opinion one way or another concerning this, I'd have thought more of the administrators would have expressed an opinion given the implications this has for justifying the creations of countless new pages. CensoredScribe (talk) 19:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
 * If I was trying to argue for the inclusion of this page I would say that Anonymous (group) is another internet subculture with a questionable level of organization as a group and cohesiveness as a larger concept, but with a page that seems to have been here a while now with no objection. However, I think dividing pages indefinitely is bound to be problematic which is perhaps why older quotation collections didn't do it when they could have for concepts that could be split. I do not think we need separate pages for murderers and murder victims or rapists or either rape victims or rape survivors nor any other variant terminology, just the one entry historically has sufficed. Also, what about a page for back-alley abortions, there are quotes specifically using that term from Margaret Sanger we could use and Wikipedia has a separate page, although not a page titled Safe abortions, nor are there pages for an Anti-choice movement or an Anti-life movement, even though those terms have often been thrown around. There's a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, "There are known knowns", should we not create pages for known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns in addition to knowing and unknown? CensoredScribe (talk) 03:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Umm... I don't really see how the extended hypothetical really makes any substantial difference one way or the other. If someone makes a page for any number of hypothetical topics, then if needed, we can have a VfD discussion for that subject to see if it is notable and quotable. There is no requirement that the outcome of this discussion need represent a binding precedent for future topics, nor that any previous discussion necessarily represent binding precedent for this one.  G M G  talk  13:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)