Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/Jewish flag


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: '''Moved to Jewish symbolism. --Saroj (talk) 16:06, 14 January 2024 (UTC)'''.

Jewish flag
No Wikipedia article, no notable/quotable quotes, and unlikely to add them. The creation of this article also seems to have been somewhat "POINT"y per message from its creator here. The link in this article's lead goes to an en-wiki draft. Wikipedia rejected creating an article with this name at recent RfD, saying that "Jewish flag" should remain a redirect to en-wiki's Flag of Israel. WQ has articles about some national flags (e.g. Flag of Ireland has some fine quotes), but WQ's Flag of Israel has been created only as a redirect to this page. — HouseOfChange (talk) 03:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Vote closes: 04:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * What POINT do you accuse me of? (Dec 28 edit: I now understand 'its creator' above to refer to Ottawahitech, not myself -- not that a VfD is concerned with that, anyway.) My intention is to list quotes describing this topic, with no prejudice to the Israeli flag getting a page to itself, just like the other national flag pages. It is my hope that sourcing quotes will also provide a list of refs that can be turned into citations for the enwiki draft. Arlo Barnes (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The that article creator Ottawahitech left on your talk page, and the article itself, suggest it was created to demonstrate that the phrase "Jewish flag" has been used both to mean the Israeli flag, and with different meaning. (This is a POINT that would be appropriate to make at Wiktionary, giving examples of usage for a phrase. WikiQuote has instead the mission to publish notable/quotable quotes about an article's theme.) Since most of the quotes in "Jewish flag" are in fact about the Flag of Israel, which does have a Wikipedia article of its own, it seems POINT-y to relitigate Wikipedia's decision to have "Jewish flag" point to "Flag of Israel" by reversing that decision in Wikiquote. HouseOfChange (talk) 22:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. I didn't retarget Jewish flag here at enwq, as it didn't exist when I made it existed for the same topic before my edits (apologies -- UDScott, GreenMeansGo, and Ottawahitech had indeed got there before me); likewise with the flag of Israel redirect. I'm indifferent as to the naming, but I do think it would be good for enwq to have both themes as they cover different matters, and I believe each are fertile ground for notable quotes (I also strive for cromulence as bon mots, but anticipate reduction to simply that to be part of a revision pass once the page is developed some more). As for enwp and enwikt, I would be happy to discuss matters further with you on my talk pages at those projects; I want to contribute to each project according to their own rules and cultures, not venue-shop. Arlo Barnes (talk) 22:40, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The consensus at Wikipedia, however, was that "Jewish flag" was not a topic independently notable, aside from its use as a synonym for "Flag of Israel." And people who argued against the consensus view were mostly objecting to treating "Jewish" as a synonym for "Israeli," not proposing to create a separate article about "Jewish flag." Wikipedia's policy on Notability requires "significant coverage in reliable sources." The flag of Israel is a notable topic, it could have WQ article with pithy quotable quotes, assuming there are some. There are en-wiki articles about "Christian flag", "Catholic flag", and "Islamic flag" becuase in each case such a flag exists in the real world. I don't think, however, we have WQ articles about any of them. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Got it. So to summarise: your ideal outcome for this VfD is that the Israeli-flag-specific content be moved to the Israel-specific name, and with that content thus transferred the topic wouldn't withstand a WQ:QN evaluation, so it should exist only as a redirect title, something like that? Otherwise I don't see how the WP RfD is relevant here since it was proposing a retarget (for which no destination was offered, hence the outcome), not a page removal. Anyway, if your opinion as a Wikiquotian is that the topic is not [qu/n]otable, then a wider proscription of it surely must be. What is your opinion of symbols of Judaism? (see also Star of David) That would bring non-flags into it, and while my interest in the topic is primarily vexillological, it might be good to take a more general tack. Arlo Barnes (talk) 03:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I think "symbols of Judaism" is an excellent suggestion, maybe using Wikipedia's wording as "Jewish symbolism"! Such an article would have many possibilities for interesting quotes, and therefore be better than creating tiny standalone articles. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)g


 * "The flag of Israel is a notable topic, it could have WQ article with pithy quotable quotes, assuming there are some." There is this historical quote by David Wolffsohn:


 * "What flag would we hang in the Congress Hall? Then an idea struck me. We have a flag—and it is blue and white. The talith (prayer shawl) with which we wrap ourselves when we pray: that is our symbol. Let us take this Talith from its bag and unroll it before the eyes of Israel and the eyes of all nations. So I ordered a blue and white flag with the Shield of David painted upon it. That is how the national flag, that flew over Congress Hall, came into being."


 * This quote appears in the Flag of Israel article on Wikipedia. It it not very well sourced, though; perhaps the Wikiquote community can help with that. BurningLibrary (talk) 16:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * That is a fine quote! I found a good source for it and just added the citation to en-wiki. Are we moving toward a consensus to have "Jewish flag" and "Flag of Israel" be re-directs to a new article "Jewish symbolism"? Star of David is already a well-developed article, rather than turning it into a re-direct, maybe add a "See also" to the end of it? HouseOfChange (talk) 17:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Good work. Regarding consensus, my thinking is: I would like to see a Flag of Israel page that accompanies the Wikipedia article Flag of Israel. But then the immediate question is what to do with quotes about other flag designs. Maybe such quotes can be collected under a subsection of the Jewish symbolism page, e.g., Jewish symbolism, with Jewish flag redirecting to Jewish symbolism. This subsection could also contain a "See also" link to Flag of Israel. The advantage here is that both Flag of Israel and Jewish symbolism have accompanying Wikipedia articles Flag of Israel and Jewish symbolism. BurningLibrary (talk) 18:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

That plan works for me. Arlo Barnes (talk) 18:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Fine with me as well, but keep in mind "notable/quotable" as you craft articles here. HouseOfChange (talk) 00:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC) Update, I have created a WQ article for Flag of Israel, which I encourage others to improve. I propose that Jewish flag instead re-direct to this new article. HouseOfChange (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.