Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/Elias Aslaksen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: no consensus. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Elias Aslaksen
Not notable. Despite the links to Wikipedia, there's no corresponding page for this person (and no evidence of one having been deleted). There are fewer than 400 Google hits for the name, which receives mention in Smith's Friends but provides few details. —LrdChaos (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Vote closes : 15:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vote extended to 15:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC), to encourge more editors' opinions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vote closed. Result: no consensus (4 deletes; 3 keeps; 1 move to Smith's Friends). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. —LrdChaos (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless evidence of notability is provided. ~ UDScott 14:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. "Smith's Friends" is a significant worldwide christian movement.  Aslaksen was its leader for 30 years.  He is the author of numerous books and is well-known in Christian circles - particularly in Scandinavia.  He was also notable in Norweigian society more generally.  A biography, Soldier of the Lord (272 pages, ISBN 9788291305417), was published in 1998.  From the linked website: "Although Elias Aslaksen lived and breathed for the church called Smith’s Friends, we must not underestimate his contributions to society in general. In the first place, we note his personal efforts at sea and in the Navy, and the example he set as a Naval Reserve Officer, where his longest service was carried out during World War I. Secondly, the effort he made on behalf of the Navy to justify the position of Christians in military service, explaining from the Bible that Christians both can and should participate. In a broader sense, this led to a definition of Christian values that included both duty and loyalty to the society in which one lives."  He was referred to in a speech by the chief of the Norwegian Navy, Vice-Admiral Magne Braadland, given to the Naval Reserve Officers as recently as 1970 and Trygve Gran, a Norweigian national hero, pilot, and polar explorer, describes Aslaksen in glowing terms in his autobiography. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WIKISUPERFIXER (talk • contribs) 07:53, 16 January 2007  (UTC)
 * Keep. There is a WP article on Aslaksen in the Norwegian edition (here). The page is properly formatted and sourced. --Ubiquity 11:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have some concern that this person is not notable in the English-speaking world. Also, the current quotes in the article are taken from Elias Aslaksen's Last Messages, published by Hidden Treasures Literature, which is an in-house publishing operation of Smith's Friends. In short, it's a reliable (primary) source for the quotes, but is more like the religious equivalent of a corporate publishing operation, which in the past we've felt isn't alone adequate to convey English-world notability. (Religious groups like the Mormons and companies like IBM have their own publishing operations, too, but we have independent notability evidence for them.) I think we need some external validation of the claims of worldwide notability. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't disagree with your comments per se. The publishing house is, as I understand it, primarily for own use, but its books are available elsewhere.  The book in question (primary source) is a collection translated transcripts of actual speeches.  The fact that they are translated indicates that there is interest in them in the English-speaking world, although doesn't of itself indicate that Aslaksen himself was notable.  I'd argue that if "Smiths Friends" are notable, then Aslaksen, by extension, is notable too (given that he was the leader of the movement for some 30 years).  The quotes above are from Kjell Arne Bratli who, as I understand it, is not affiliated with the group.  His books and research into the Smith's friends movement are also translated into Emglish .  According to this source, Smith Friends has branches across England, Australia, Canada, the US, South Africa, India, New Zealand as well as non-English speaking countries.  It is at least as big (probably bigger) than well-known religious groups like the "Exclusive Brethren".  Dr Lowell Streiker a US-based expert on religious groups has published his research into the movement ( and ).  A web search of Lowell's book (ISBN 0275960846) indicates that it is widely available (both new and used) from numerous online bookstores.  The AJPS report referenced above is also an independent source which can be used to assess the notability or otherwise of Smith's Friends.  In summary, in my opinion, Smith's Friends as a growing religious movement across the English-speaking world is notable (at least in religious circles).  Aslaksen as a significant figure in the movement is notable by extension.WIKISUPERFIXER 09:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The mere fact that a work is translated into English and published by a non-mainstream press is not really evidence that the work is notable in the English-speaking world, only that the publisher hopes it will be. I mentioned the Mormons above because they came to mind as willing to invest an incredible amount of money to hand out free publications, which is effectively advertising (which is also what made me think of corporate publishing, which does similar things for similar reasons). The way to demonstrate true notability is to provide mainstream publication evidence. I could not find the publisher for Soldier of the Lord, nor did I find any mention of Kjell Arne Bratli either on Amazon .com or the U.S. Library of Congress, usually a very bad sign for an author of an English text. Streiker's book is available on Amazon, from a textbook publisher, but its rank of 3 million is worse than many vanity publications. I don't know what "AJPS report" refers to, as I found no mention of those initials in the various cited references. I can't help but think that this all sums up to a relatively obscure subject being pushed by someone with an uncomfortably close relationship to the subject (bandying about undefined acronyms, calling an author by first name, citing in-house publications and obscure websites). Can you cite any mainstream press on Aslaksen (e.g., news articles, magazines, etc.)? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know Streiker from a bar of soap and accidently used his first rather than surname. My point is that Aslaksen's notability is directly linked to the notability of "Smith's Friends", as he was heavily involved in its development and led it for 33 years.  If the group isn't considered notable, then Aslaksen isn't either.  I'd contend that the movement is significant enough to warrant inclusion. WIKISUPERFIXER 14:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the reference to the AJPS report. I thought I cited it above.  It's at this website. WIKISUPERFIXER 13:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. After reviewing the evidence, I'm afraid I must go with deletion. The cited AJPS (American Journal of Political Science? one should always expand acronyms unless universally known) report by Geir Lie states that Smith's Friends is a movement without a formal name that, as of 2004, had only "25,000 to 30,000" members, no more than 20,000 of whom are outside Norway. That's less than the population of the small town I grew up in. This doesn't strike me as a well-known organization, even outside the English-speaking world. (I've never heard of the "Exclusive Brethren", either, and they apparently have 30-40 times the membership.) Even if Smith's Friends are considered notable enough (I don't see that this question has been raised at Smith's Friends yet), the leader of an organization isn't necessarily notable just because his/her organization is. To extend my corporate comparison, we have quotes from IBM founder Thomas Watson, but not latter-day IBM savior Lou Gerstner; in fact, most IBM CEOs will probably never have quote articles here. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I got the "AJPS" article from a web search. "AJPS" appears in the header, which I used for the reference.  Just checked again and the footer reveals that in this case AJPS stands for the Asian Journal of Pentecostal Studies. WIKISUPERFIXER 11:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Out it goes then, I guess. Last word goes to Aslaksen himself (if I may indulge just this once): "I am totally, indescribably happy.  Nothing bothers or annoys me, nothing causes me difficulties, nothing - absolutely nothing, no matter what it is or who it is..." (Last Messages, Judge Not, Stavanger, Norway, 17 January,  1976).  Thanks for the robust collaboration.  it is what makes the whole wiki work so wonderfully well!  :-) WIKISUPERFIXER 10:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not so fast, WIKISUPERFIXER. The fat lady hasn't sung yet. We don't go with a simple majority here. I've extended the vote another week to see if anyone else wants to express their opinions, but unless we get a more decisive conclusion, this discussion is headed toward a "no consensus" close, which is a de facto keep. You may yet persuade the community of your case. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete after reading the above discussion. However, I would be in favour of moving it to Smith's Friends, where other relevant quotes could be included, as the organisation seems to (just about) merit being included. I understand, though, that preference is to have articles on people and not on organisations. Maybe there could be a rethink on this? Tyrenius 21:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. The page seems genuine and verifiable, and added in good faith, and while the subject hasn't been extensively quoted in English, he does seem to be the right side of the notability bar. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 11:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Move under a condition; I doubt the claimed "worldwide" notability of this person - in Japan I haven't heard this person. Either "Smith's Friend". But our project is not focused in japanophone, it is just a n objection of claimed worldwide significance. The latter could reach our criteria (cf. Steve A. Hassan's Freedom of Mind Centre). The website suggests their activities are mainly in German and Norwegen speaking world, even in English speaking one it is difficult to find their information, suggested. We can conclude at this time they are not so known in English speaking world and not meet the criteria of English Wikiquote? One another point we would like to note that in this page this group is claimed as "cult". Under the requirement of NPOV, we need to say on the article about it. Or we can quote some from this website - it is a worldwidely known website concerning religious cults. Otherwise we are better to delete it. We are better not to host non only its notability but also NPOV challenged materials. --Aphaia 07:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure I get the NPOV point raised by Aphaia. The discussion has been about the natability (or otherwise) of the person and/or the group. If the point raised is that we can't make this judgement on POV or likely POV material, I agree wholeheartedly.  I'd suggest, however, that this is probably not the case here.  Further - the question of a group being a cult (often high POV territory itself) is not necessarily relevant in determining notability.  There will be multiple examples of cults and non-cults alike being notable. WIKISUPERFIXER 10:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Aphaia, could you clarify your statement? I read it as a "move (presumably to Smith's Friends) if condition met, otherwise delete", but I'm not sure if you feel the condition(s) have been met, or how to meet them. Do you feel we have enough notability evidence cited above? As for POV, I saw nothing in the current or earlier versions of this article that says "cult", nor does Smith's Friends (which isn't our responsibility, anyway) currently say "cult" anywhere except in a title of one of its references. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments, folks. To WIKISUPERFIXER, I agree our discussion here is mainly about notability and NPOV is not precisely the point of argument. I intended the coming edit after move should be remarked at that point (since the move requires appropriate modification). If someone cannot be available for further editing, I think now we are better to remove it; that is my argument. Or the person himself are better to be removed due to unnotability in English speaking world. As for the cult mention, on the website I pointed out on the above (and perhaps other documents, but it is hardly available for me in Japan, and I don't want to spend my time and money to search that) we find a quote which says the grous is a cult, and we can cite it as "quotes about Smith's group".   --Aphaia 07:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.