Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/James Tarmy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: delete. — MosheZadka 22:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

James Tarmy
None-notable student. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 20:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Vote closed: Result: delete (controversial: 3 delete, 3 keep, but keeps were mostly by new users [2 of which have no edits outside James Tarmy and VfD], and no notability was established, the users refused to discuss notability policy in general and asserted importance. I urge all those who feel that this closure is wrong to raise the issue on the village pump. I will also wait before I execute the discussion -- I intend to contact all keep voters and ask them to copy any and all quotes they find useful to their page or a subpage thereof, so they will not have to start from scratch should notability be established, as an act of good faith) ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 22:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unless evidence of notability provided. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 20:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep at least as notable as Emile Cioran. In the ancient world philosophers did not publish but were preserved in writing by their disciples. Mgasner 22:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: This user was created 5 minutes before posting this comment, and this was their only contribution. Might be a sockpuppet or a meat puppet of ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 22:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Emile Cioran has several publications. No evidence was provided for any publications by Mr. Tarmy. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 22:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Mr. Tarmy is an aristocrat of the spirit and, like Socrates, does not publish. Mgasner 03:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Tarmy is a student, and students are almost never notable. A Google check of 1 confirmed hit (a website devoted to the U of C Class of 2007) demonstrates that he's even less known than a university student of the same name who rows competitively. This is an obvious non-notability case. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Tarmy is specifically described on the page as a nihilist philosopher. At this stage in his academic work, his nihilism tends towards that described in Nietzsche's later work. Nietzsche characterizes his brand of nihilism as a philosophy  regarding the world and human existence as empty of meaning, purpose, and value. Tarmy does not formally publishing any of his works, though they are in informal circulation. Tarmy's philosophy revolves around filling a life left devoid of meaning with the one thing that remains to satisfy the human heart: material wealth. Tarmy approaches the postmodern concept of nihilism (a philosophy less defeatist than that of Nietzsche) from this direction. Material wealth is the only thing left for humans to "fill the void" (Tarmy, 06/25/04), the only thing that can provide any semblance of happiness or fulfillment in human existence in a world where such a individualistic capitalist slave-state exists. As Tarmy's philosophy moves from Nietzsche's concept of nihilism (with defeatism a distinct characteristic) towards a more postmodern nihilistic stance, his attitude towards formal publication may change, but it is impossible to say for sure. User:Mdmalinowski 21:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Mdmalinowski is probably Matthew David Malinowski, who is, like James Tarmy, a University of Chicago student. Mgasner, assuming they're not a sockpuppet of Mdmalinowski, may be Max Gasner, apparently yet another U of Chicago student.  We have a straightforward policy on students that follows Wikipedia guidelines as well. No amount of fellow classmate voting makes a student notable, and shouldn't override basic Wikiquote policy. Nor should any amount of flowery prose, arrogant enough to discuss a mere college student on the same level as world-famous, time-honored philosophers, replace the basic requirement for notability. Many college students think they're the next Socrates or Einstein; we only cite quotations from people who prove their notability. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm new here - are we supposed to try to defend our existence as autonomous human beings? Or is the accusation of "sockpuppet" sort of to be taken as one possibility which cannot, once raised, be discounted? Mgasner 02:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC) I mean, why not just ask us who we are? Why go on Google adventures? Who's on trial? Mgasner 03:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * These are good questions. Normally, one need not identify oneself, as we value privacy. However, when people refuse to abide by Wikiquote policies, it is not unusual for others to try to ferret out reasons why they seem determined to flout them. (This is different from arguing changes on appropriate policy talk pages, which then are available for the community to review and debate.) Wikiquote accepts personal quotes (and quotes from friends, family, and other non-notables that a user finds quotable) on user pages, but maintains a need for notability for main namespace articles. As for sockpuppets, they are sufficiently damaging to the community consensus process that we make some effort to identify possible ones through editing pattterns. MosheZadka listed why he suspected this as a possibility, and my further research suggested this may not be the situation. Neither case is proven. But regardless, policy requires notability, and students are considered unnotable unless significant evidence exists to show otherwise. (I won't even try to count the number of high school and college students who have assumed they deserved quote articles alongside Shakespeare et al. just because they are able to create the page.) The Tarmy article and its two supporters' arguments so far effectively make the case that we won't find such evidence. This does not make Tarmy uninteresting or unquotable, just not eligible for a Wikiquote article. Other quote sites have different inclusion and exclusion guidelines; we ask that editors respect ours. I suggest Mdmalinowski and Mgasner copy whatever Tarmy quotes they like to their own user pages. As far as asking who people are, I think we don't usually bother because in most cases, we don't expect straightforward answers from people who are deliberately trying to violate policy. But we may have been too hasty here. Users are welcome to say as much or as little about themselves as they want to on their user pages. As this point, Mdmalinowski has no user page, Mgasner has a brief statement without identifying information, and neither has confirmed or denied any of the above research. I hate to sound so repetitious, but even if these users were Steven Spielberg and J.D. Salinger and made passionate arguments above the worthiness of Tarmy, what matters is verifiable sources for notability, not personal acclamation. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out that the criteria we have cited in favor of Tarmy's notability specifically exclude the possibility of there being verifiable sources of the kind you require. It is a point of philosophical significance that certain thinkers refuse to publish. I suppose however that "policy" must prevail (it certainly will once a decent period has elapsed, as you have fiat power and we do not) and look forward to everyone's return to the important work of amassing tidbits from Zorro and Gilligan's Island so that they "will exist forever as a summary of the collective insights of society, communal knowledge passed on from one generation to the next." Mgasner 05:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I am pretty much sick of this discussion, and won't return to it again. I will note, however, that as you have pointed out, "disciples" often collect wisdom of philosophers and publish it. If you and your friends decide to collect Tarmy's wisdom, such as it is, and publish it via a non-vanity press, I'm certain that everyone here will be more than happy to have a page with quotations from that book. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 05:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikiquote sysops have no "fiat" power; we must follow the policies that the community has developed, and we must use the same mechanisms any other editor is obliged to use if we wish to change rules. Neither MosheZadka nor I created Wikiquote, nor did we develop these notability requirements. (Check out the Wikipedia article on Wikiquote if you're interested; it specifically mentions "prominent" quotees, and James Tarmy is prominent only in the minds of a rabid few.) I have addressed why Wikiquote does not accept unpublished quotees; Mgasner refuses to accept this policy or attempt to change it by bringing it up in the Village pump or other appropriate venue. Mgasner is implicitly arguing that Tamry is more valuable than movies or TV shows. Whatever one might think of specific examples in any genre, there is no objective way to evaluate quoteworthiness; Mediawiki projects like Wikiquote have centered on sourceable published material collected by editors and reviewed by the community. By this guideline, Gilligan's Island has had enormously more cultural impact than Tamry, no doubt even at the University of Chicago. (That may very well change in years to come; if so, Tamry fans are welcome to create a new article with his works based on whatever sourceable references are used by Wikiquote at that future time.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete no notability. Some projects set vote eligibility for VfD or VfA - like "50 edits on Main namespace". I assume it is the time for us to consider if we also need such a rule, avoiding fraud with sock- and meatpuppets . --Aphaia 21:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Of course he's not published; he's only 20 years old! I must confess I only came across this entry while browsing Mr. Tarmy's Facebook page, but after a quick look through it I can tell that he should stay on Wikiquote.  Why?  Because all of his quotations are quite deep for a college student, and that is a good sign.  Plus, they're at once funny and interesting to read. --sstigler 22:56, 6 November 2005 (PST)
 * Note: This user was created 10 minutes before writing this comment, and this was his only contribution. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 12:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.