Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/Ruzkin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: delete. — Jeffq 02:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ruzkin
Not notable. ~ UDScott 13:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Vote closed. Result: delete (3 Deletes; 1 Keep; some notability evidence provided, but failed to sway votes.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. ~ UDScott 13:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable vanity page. &mdash;LrdChaos 13:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete unless evidence of notability provided. The sources for the 2 current quotes are from discussion boards, which are not wiki-reliable sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't DeleteThe wikipedia reliabiltity article states that websites can be used as primary sources if the person in question is the creater of the webpage. Ruzkin is a moderator of all on pkaus, and so can be called an author of the webpage. Secondly, he is a notable figure in both the Australian Parkour Scene and Australian Tricking scene, although it is unlikly you would have heard of him if you were not involved in either of these groups.&mdash;Yacob
 * Two points to consider about Yacob's statement:
 * The "Personal websites as primary sources" section does allow for personal websites to supply supplemental information, but makes clear that they are not treated as reliable sources, nor do they automatically convey notability. Wikipedia only uses them to provide likely POV material to articles which must be verified elsewhere. Anyone can create a website, but only indepedent sources can demonstrate notability.
 * On the other hand, since Wikiquote wants a person's own words, personal websites of an independently-confirmed notable person could be used as a source for quotes themselves.
 * Providing other parkour and tricking sources that indicate the notability of Ruskin might very well resolve my objection. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have moved the quotes to the atttributed section, so they are no longer sourced by him but are attributed to him. I do not agree with this however, forums should be a genuine source of information, as they were posted the person in question, so they are their words in electronic format. The internet is a growing force which wikipedia itself obviously is a huge part of and as more and more information is compiled directly into computers and online, which according to this policy is not a reputable source. Just because a book says something dosn't mean its true either, so why should books be given much more reliability over internet forums? This is intended as a question and not as a flame, so please take it as such. As per your second comment, although it is unlikly that Ruzkin is known as well outside Australia as he is here, although I do belive he mods www.nztraceur.com boards, and is therefore notable in New Zealand as well. &mdash;Yacob
 * Well, I have been trying to edit my previous comment and it keeps changing, so ill just put a new one here. In addition to moderating pkaus he moderates Urban Freeflow (the worlds largest parkour site) forums as well. Therefore he is notable outside Australia. I do belive this removes any arguments you had against his notability, and I would ask that you research more deeply next time, there are a lot of people in the world scattered throughout a lot of groups/organisations and you cannot possibly know them all. Parkour has been an underground movement for a long time, so it has still yet to come into the public eye, which is why you would not have of many names either. David Belle? Sebastian Foucan? Cyril Raffaelli? It is not likely you have heard of these names either, but in the Parkour world they're bigger than Jesus :). And before with the message you sent me LrdChaos, sorry yeah it was me but I wasn't logged in. Finally, since I have moved the quotes and provided solid evidence for Ruzkins notability, is this vote now cancelled? I have not recieved any reply's over this weekend, so I am unsure to what happens now. &mdash;Yacob
 * Yacob, could you please read the information at the top of this page, which says (in bold) what you should read before contributing to this page? If you did, you would find, among other useful information, that VfD entries must remain here for a minimum of 2 weeks unless their subjects can be speedy-deleted, which is clearly not what you want. Please also note that everyone editing here is a volunteer with no set schedule, even the sysops, so yuu cannot expect people to respond immediately to requests. In fact, if you look around at the rest of this page, you'll find that we've been extremely busy with a spate of vanity articles from people who seem to have far more time to complain and vandalize than the regular editors have to respond and repair. Please be patient. As for your "evidence", you have provided no specific, verifiable information yet. You have given the Wikiquote community hints about where to find the information, but you have not provided any new weblinks, print publication titles, audiovisual citations, or anything actually considered a reliable source by Wikimedia Foundation standards. If you want to convince others of your statements, give them verifiable sources and links to check. If you just make claims and require others to do the legwork, you may not succeed. (If you review other entries, you will find examples of how editors provide citations and links that support their statements. Hint: the current entries for "You're either with us, or against us", "George Fernandez", "Love Inc." (ignoring my "W.C." joke), "Joshua Alexander Scruggs", and "Micahel Stuart (statistician)" include some common kinds of specific evidence for successful arguments.) The more specific and more readily verifiable the information, the more likely you will be able to change people's minds. You have time to make your case, as this entry will remain here at least until 26 May. Since I have just spent all of my own VfD-allocated time for now explaining this to you, I must defer the source checking I was going to do on your information until much later. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, evidence. It is hard to show evidence of somebodies online status from an offline source, so here is the online evidence for his status. Pkaus: On this link, the rank of pkaus.com team means he is a moderator: http://www.pkaus.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6. I am sorry but I am unable to supply the links to his Urban Freeflow moderator status from these boards http://pub77.ezboard.com/burbanfreeflow, as ezboards are blocked over the proxy server which I am operating from. If however, once in these ezboard you go to the memberlist you will be able to find his name with a rank of 'moderator' or something similar. As for the quotes, since they come from unreliable sources or word of mouth, they have been moved to the Attributed section which I think will negate any comments about their authenticity. &mdash;Yacob
 * Yacob, I have already said that while discussion boards may be a reasonable source of quotes (not everyone would agree), they are definitely not reliable sources for notability evidence. However, in my very first attempt to find out who this person is, I Googled for "Chris Hayes-Kossman" (Ruzkin's real name), was redirected to "Chris Hayes-Kossmann" (note the extra "n"), and found that the first reference was for a transcription of an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) "Stateline Canberra" interview with Hayes-Kossmann and Aaron Pakula on parkour. That is what we call a reliable source. Unfortunately, none of the other 4 Google hits was reliable, nor were most even relevant (although they all seemed to be about "Ruzkin"). On the other hand, the apparent misspelling yielded a single hit for deviantART.com, which may be worrisome to regular readers of VfD, as we had considerable negative experience from another deviantART denizen, Walter Muncaster (aka User:0waldo), who also had difficulty providing verifiable notability info on his subject (himself). "Ruzkin" yields even more deviantART-related material. This may be utter coincidence, but it is not confidence-building. I would focus on getting exact information about Hayes-Kossmann's TV and radio appearances, and try to find some parkour/traceur-related print sources. Surely someone on the discussion boards could suggest some? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This is the link to the ABC Stateline (An Australian 'current affairs' show). This has ruzkin in it, although it is a 75MB download. http://www.pkaus.com/Media/Articles/Stateline-ACTPK-29Apr2006.avi . The radio-interview you linked to is this Ruzkin, although an audio copy for download is not available, searching here http://www.pkaus.com/ will show that under the 'Parkour Media Blitz' news segment it says Quote: "Recent radio inteview featuring ruzkin: to be sourced", so an audio copy is not available. I am currently looking for recent newspaper articles featuring the Canberra parkour scene, although to my knowledge there has been no print media published on the Canberra parkour scene, only on the other major cities of Australia. Also, it is very likly that the deviantART Ruzkin is the same as the pkaus Ruzkin, firstly due to the 'favorite things' on both websites are identical, that the locations are both in Australia and that their is a 'Kraden' in both pkaus and deviantART. Kraden is one of Ruzkins followers in the canberra parkour scene; and is called Kraden on pkaus as well, with his location listed as Canberra. Finally, both pkaus users link to the repective deviantART pages in this thread. http://www.pkaus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=535 . Ruzkin also says he is the deviantART Ruzkin, as is Ruzkin.com. I am still trying to track down the radio inteview too.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.