Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/Vulcan Proverbs


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: No consensus. — Jeffq 07:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vulcan Proverbs
--It's from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Spock said "There's an old Vulcan proverb, 'Only Nixon could go to China'," referring to sending Kirk and crew on a diplomatic mission to the Klingons. It was said in dialogue on screen. Vote: NO
 * Vote Closed. Result: No consensus (2 Deletes; 2 Keeps; 1 unsigned vote). I will move the article to a proper title (as described below). &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 07:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that the Vulcan's knew Nixon. Delete. Rmhermen 03:27, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, this is an actual quote from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (although I haven't verified the exact text). Spock said it when volunteering Kirk and the Enterprise for a Federation/Klingon detente meeting. One assumes he was being ironic by claiming it as a Vulcan saying. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 04:27, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unless the page adds actual Vulcan proverbs (it's possible, ST is a huge franchise). MosheZadka 04:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: I won't bother to do so unless this article survives its VfD, but it should be moved to Vulcan proverbs. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 04:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: if this quote is indeed real, then I wonder if we should delete... I don't think that we generally delete pages with only one quote in them. Perhaps it's better to wait and see if someone improves it. Sams 20:44, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is now vastly expanded upon.Caiman 20:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Now a new and usual fear struck me: Is it remaining within the sphere of Fair Use? Quotes is not the citation of whole things .... --Aphaia 20:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article is expanded, but from a source called "Surak's Scroll" that has no legitimate citations, no mention in the Wikipedia article on Surak, and zero hits on Google in any of the forms I tried. As it stands, this strikes me as an even greater reason to delete the article. I've posted a note on its talk page to encourage explanation. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 03:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * OK... seems like you're right, but since 2 other people already tried to contribute to this article, I don't think that we should have eagerness to delete it, and instead we can keep it and wait for some time, perhaps more input from 'trekkers' will emerge... Sams 03:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sam, do you convince those contribs are legitimate quotes and not fan creations? --Aphaia 03:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I personally know nothing about vulcans and star trek, therefore my opinion here is only in the level of general principles. I think that if we notice articles that seem like a hoax that were created with malicious intent, creating confusion, or containing insults, then we should even speedy-delete them (in the rare cases where we would get it wrong, no big deal, they can be recreated). However, if it seems that the intent was ok, but the contribs didn't get it right, then, assuming that it's possible for the article to be improved (I don't really understand if that's the case here), we should have a more liberal approach, and first try the talk page (like JeffQ did) for a while, before VFD. I note that Jeffq raised a good point, about "legitimacy to spurious information by getting it replicated in search engines". However, JeffQ, with all due respect to TV series, there might be better places to start... For example, I noticed the George Galloway article and cleaned it up a little, but someone dumped in there his 1994 speech with no good source, and if you google sentences from it now, you'll get wikiquote as the result, and perhaps a few message boards with the same thing. It's probably more or less accurate, perhaps completely accurate, but we give it legitimacy on wikiquote without really knowing... BTW in this particular case, the entire page should in fact be divided into 2 wikisource articles, but it seems that the wikipedia people like to use wikiquote for dumping their superfluous data... Sams 10:46, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd actually be in favor of keeping this article if what my inadequate recollection suggests are many proverb-like quotes were reliably listed. But I'd rather delete an article filled with junk now than wait from someone to do due diligence to make this article accurate, which can take months or even years on WQ, while we lend legitimacy to spurious information by getting it replicated in search engines. I think the warning of impending deletion serves to motivate keepers to do the work necessary to make this a useful and accurate article. If not, it can always be recreated later. If no evidence is provided for the legitimacy of the current content and we still keep the article, I'll probably just remove everything not backed up by references (which is currently all but the original single quote). &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 04:34, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment though the vote closed already, and there is no consensus to delete it (there are the same number of votes for keeps and deletes, 2-2 except Jeffq's latest comment), I would like to extent the vote for some days, like three days or a week. My current position is alike to Jeffq. Now delete, and wait someday a trekker will submit a collection of "legitimate" Valcan proverbs, if exists. So
 * Delete. --Aphaia 07:21, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should count a vote after closure, otherwise what is the point of have a close date? Anyway, since we aim for community consensus, which is not strictly defined but is frequently considered most valid around two-thirds (67%) or more of voting users, another "delete" vote wouldn't change the results. (It would be 60/40 for "delete"; my comment was deliberately not a vote one way or another). Using my judgment per policy, I believe that the community has not achieved the consensus to delete. I do plan, however, to remove the questionable quotes mentioned above until such time as someone can provide a credible source for them, and will endeavor in the near future both to verify the current substantiated quote and to collect some others. Further discussion on this issue should probably take place at Talk:Vulcan proverbs. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 07:43, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.