Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/Wikiquote:Esperanza


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: . Delete. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 12:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza
This is supposed to be an en:Wikiquote branch of the Esperanza wiki-project, whose goals (according to w:Wikipedia:Esperanza, generalized) are "to be a place Wikimedians can turn to for hope, help, and reassurance". I've only had the most trivial interactions with WP's project, but I can see four important points: Wikiquote hardly needs new social networking projects to distract from its purpose. We spend enough time deleting edits and articles from newbies who think we're "MySpace for Quotations". Now an editor brand-new to Wikimedia in general has nominated himself "President" of Wikiquote:Esperanza. While one can appreciate his enthusiasm, I'm afraid it's totally misplaced and has nothing to do with Wikiquote's goal of creating an accurate, well-sourced compendium of quotations from notable people and creative works. And we don't have any bandwith from experienced editors to establish and maintain such a controversial project, anyway. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Membership is open to people with "about" 150+ edits and 2 weeks' experience; i.e., someone who's gotten some basic experience with Wikimedia project editing.
 * WP:ESP has an elected council. It is not an ad hoc WikiProject.
 * 1) The creator of this current page, User:Sir James Paul, not only doesn't have any of these qualifications here, and indeed has engaged in several kinds of newbie editing mistakes (like unformatted quote article creation and adding his own quotes to a WQ article), but also fails to meet WP:ESP's membership requirements as well, as he only has about 110 edits and 8 days' experience there.
 * 2) The whole idea of Esperanza is under review (see w:Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza) because it is being used as a social network instead of a Wikimedia-purposed assistance project, siphoning effort away from actual project work.


 * Vote closed: Result: Delete. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 12:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong KeepTo start off with I am a member of Esperanza on BOTH wikipedia's. I am very familar with how it works. I also want to make something that is not 100% similar to the ones on wikipedia. It is not the exact same project. The only thing that is different is that it has a president and vice president, everthing else is the same. I have asked people from wikipedia's Esperanza to come and help me so I will have people who the guy would consider creadable. This project is not a social network, its a group of people who are trying to make wikiquote a more friendly place. I pray that you will keep it.--Sir James Paul 20:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * w:User:Sir james paul added his own name to w:Wikipedia:Esperanza/Members. If he was formally approved as a member before doing this, then WP:ESP doesn't follow its own incredibly modest guidelines. If he merely added his name, then WP:ESP isn't adequately checking those guidelines. Either way, there's something wrong with the project. I'm not saying anyone should engage in wiki-lawyering, but it's a fundamentally foolish thing to allow people with inadequate understanding of the problems and stresses of an activity to dole out advice and support to regular practioners. And newcomers already have w:Wikipedia:New contributors' help page there, as well as Village pump here. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. I believe that, whatever the purpose of this project, its tendency would in practice be towards turning WQ into a mere chatroom. Antiquary 22:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I echo everything that has been said about Sir James Paul's good intentions. However, I do not see the point of Esperanza. I have never joined it on Wikipedia and my experience of it there is that it does little except constantly have elections: and elections (which are something of a specialist subject of mine) do little to advance unity and much to increase competition. The whole group of Wikiquote editors should be welcoming and encouraging of new participants, not just the members of a project. We want new editors to think of what they can do to improve our quote collection, not further an internal project. Delete. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 22:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Outside Comment - Due to Sir John Paul's and my (w:simple:User:PullToOpen) experiences at simple.wikipedia, it is clear that he wants to be in charge of something. My guess is he just picked a project at random and started a group that seemed successful on english (and exists on simple, but isn't really doing much). Look, I would just delete this and move on. I am sorry, Sir John Paul, but this really shouldn't be here. I would vote delete, but this comment is my only edit on this project, and probably will be for a while. PullToOpen 00:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Outside comment I've been told by several ex-esperanza coordinators that the original organisation on en.wikipedia is currently in a fairly sub-optimal state. It's probably not a good idea to spread the concept further until the bugs have been taken out. 80.126.238.189 00:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC) / en:Kim Bruning


 * This is different than Esperanza on wikipedia. It does not reapeat the same mistakes that the wikipedia Esperanza does. The administrator who is trying to get this deleted does not know much about any of the Esperanzas.--Sir James Paul 03:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Your assumption of bad faith would imply you are indeed utterly unfamiliar with Wikimedia projects. Dev920 16:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete — JeffQ makes good and strong arguments for deletion which I 100% endorse ~ This project does not belong here, it looks to me that '"President" Sir James Paul' is looking to run something. MatthewFenton 08:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: The following was posted by a Wikipedia Esperanzan in response to a complaint I lodged on the WP Esperanza MfD talk page. I have copied it here, changing only the wiki links to point to the original WP pages. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly, this was never discussed nor approved by anyone on the Wikipedia Esperanza. This user did it entirely by himself.  He never discussed it on Wikiquote, is obviously not a strong member of their community, and screwed up big time. I'm sorry this happened.  Nextly, Esperanza is undergoing severe changes on Wikipedia, so it was dumb to do this before all the changes were made.  Personally, I see no use for a wikiquote Esperanza; but that's your call, not mine.  I only do a very small amount of Wikiquote work, only for Dragonlance.  I do not consider myself part of your community, so it's not my decision.  Please accept my apologies on behalf of Esperanza.  Just for the record, if you'd like to check out how Esperanza on Wikipedia is shaping up, see Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul for some info.   Dooms  Day349  01:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. ~ UDScott 14:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. We don't really have the numbers that would be needed to sustain such an effort even if we decided to move forward, and really, I don't believe that any sort of "lack of community" is a problem here, at least not in the sense that wasting effort on community-building would yield gains in the number of active editors. —LrdChaos (talk) 15:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 'Delete Wikiquote does not suffer from the edit warring and in-fighting that led some people to believe that Esperanza was needed over there. Thus it is entirely futile for it to exist here. Dev920 16:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Esperanza looks to be merely a distraction from our work here. - InvisibleSun 19:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All Esperanza is, is a group of editors who want wikiquote to be a friendly place. IT IS NOT LIKE THE ESPERANZA ON WIKIPEDIA. Your only job as a member is to be friendly. JeffQ knows nothing about the wikiquote version of Esperanza. It is not the same as wikipedia esperanza. Thanks.--Sir James Paul 20:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * James, I don't see how you can say that the Wikiquote Esperanza is different from the Wikipedia Esperanza because there basically isn't a Wikiquote Esperanza. Sure, there's the page we're discussing now, but a single page does not a project, or a community, make. I also don't see what substantial difference there would be between your proposed Esperanza and the Wikipedia one; your page seems to copy the text of the w:Wikipedia:Esperanza page, and if you're starting from the same set of guidelines and principles, isn't it reasonable to expect that the end result will be similar? I also think that, everything else aside, a goal of "20 members" and a "9 member[]" council is far too ambitious for any subproject at Wikiquote; I would be surprised if you would be able to find 20 currently-active Wikiquote editors who meet the criteria for membership. Wikiquote is not nearly as large or as active as Wikipedia, and I would hypothesize that we have a significantly smaller ratio of registered editors to anonymous editors than Wikipedia does. —LrdChaos (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per arguments above. -- Robert 03:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * JeffQ does not know anything about wikiquote Esperanza. This Esperanza is not like that Esperanza on wikipedia. This project is a group of editors who agree to follow a set of rules. Some of wich are to work hard, be kind, and stay away from edit wars. This whole thing is a big misunderstanding.--Sir James Paul 16:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * James, those are basically the guidelines for Wikimedia projects anyway. Also, you are still claiming that people "know nothing" about the Wikiquote Esperanza, that it's different from Wikipedia's, and that people just aren't seeing that. I mentioned this above, but I'll say it again: people don't understand Wikiquote Esperanza because there is no Wikiquote Esperanza. For any project to succeed here, it needs to have some support from the community; at a minimum, it needs to be accepted the community, or else is has no standing as a project and is just a series of pages in a wiki. So far, the overwhelming consensus is not accepting your proposed project, and so all you have are a few pages in a wiki. —LrdChaos (talk) 16:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per all above. (Should this be closed per WP:SNOW?)
 * Wikiquote has no equivalent of WP:SNOW and hasn't really observed it in practice. Unlike WP, we have a fixed minimum consideration time (largely due to the small, infrequently editing community), and have had no community call for early termination of VfDs except in the case of clear speedy-deletion situations (which are still fairly new in practice). It's probably best to let this run its course. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The goal of Esperanza is to make wwikiquote a better place. Esperanza members will do this by doing three thing, by reverting vandalism and keep it from happening, being friendly to other editors, and by working hard. Esperanza will encourage these things by giving out rewards. Esperanza will reward you for the following things, reverting vandalism, being kind, working hard, and will also reward the best article. The people/article names will be on the Esperanza page. Giving out rewards will bost confidence in editors and help them feel welcomed. It is false when Jeffq says that wikiquote Esperanza is just like the Esperanza on wikipedia, it is also false that wikiquote:Esperanza does not exist.--Sir James Paul 18:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * but is there an epidemic of vandalism and unfriendliness in Wikiquote that makes the existence of Esperanza necessary? methinks this is a solution without a problem. Unbelievable 18:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * James, you say that "it is […] false that wikiquote:Esperanza does not exist." While I grant that, at the current time, a page titled Esperanza does exist, that does not mean that the project does. As I said, there is more to a project that simply having a page in a wiki. Right now, it's a project with one member (you) and thus far unanimous opposition from the community. I think that you need to take a step back and take a long look at Wikipedia and Wikiquote, and note the significant differences between the two. For one thing, Wikiquote is much smaller than Wikipedia, and so there's a certain sense of community that simply develops out of that. For example, I can name most, if not all, of the widely active editors at Wikiquote, and I could probably count them all on one hand. Compare this to Wikipedia, where there are hundreds, if not thousands, of widely active contribtors. (By "widely active", I mean editors who involve themselves in several parts of the site, as opposed to lots of work to a very small number of pages, most of which are related to each other.) On Wikiquote, as opposed to Wikipedia, it's nearly impossible to become "lost in the crowd", as it were. It's possible to load Special:Recentchanges, then come back an hour later and refresh the page, and see some of the same edits on that page, as compared to Wikipedia, which is currently showing 21 seconds worth of activity in 50 edits. I also disagree that any sort of "reward" system is needed. For one thing, I feel that people work best when the work itself is its own reward, rather than being motivated by something like a reward (whether it be a barnstar or a salary). That said, I acknowledge that there are a lot of people who feel differently, and there is certainly no shortage of people who are willing to perform some task solely for the promise of a reward. However, considering that Wikiquote, like Wikipedia, is a strictly-volunteer project, there aren't many rewards that can be offered that are an incentive to do good work; one's desire for a barnstar isn't likely to be a significantly motivating factor in their work on Wikipedia, for instance. Rather, rewards of that type help to serve as recognition of good work, when it's done. Again, differences between Wikiquote and Wikipedia make this a different beast all together. I would say that for those of us who are presently active on Wikiquote, we're doing what we do ("reverting vandalism, being kind, working hard") because we like the mission of Wikiquote and we would like to make that succeed.  I, for one, don't need to be "rewarded" with an image of a star on my user page for the work I do. I think that this also goes back to the "Wikipedia large, Wikiquote small" issue I raised above. Since Wikiquote is so much smaller, it's much easier for people to see who's consistently doing good work. I do hope that you're reading my responses, James, because I haven't seen you reply to any of my points yet. For all your claims that we don't understand Esperanza, you haven't addressed any of the points that I've seen myself or anyone else raise about it; you just once again claim that we don't understand. Perhaps if you tried to tell us why we're wrong, or what we're missing, people would be more receptive to what you have to say. —LrdChaos (talk) 18:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that we do not have problems with vandalism, people being unfriendly, and people being lazzy yet but if we have wikiquote Esperanza these problems will not happen as quick. Another thing is that Esperanza will not only give people awards for furthering these causes but will also terminate the membership of people who vandaliz, are rude/blocked, and who are not active. These people will also go on a list. If a lot of members join this it will send a powerful message to rude members, vandals, and people who are lazzy. Another thing is that all I am is the interm president. Once we are able to have a election the members will vote for who they want as president and vice president.--Sir James Paul 19:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Trust me - the existence of Esperanza does not and will not deter vandalism or laziness. Vandals will vandalize, and lazy people will continue to be lazy whether or not there is a page at Esperanza. --24.29.141.11 01:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The goal of wikiquote:Esperanza is to make wikiquote the best it can be. All members of Esperanza agree to revert vandalism and keep it from becoming a problem, to be friendly to everyone, and to work hard. We will encourage reverting vandalism, being friendly, and working hard by giving out monthly rewards and by putting the people who got them on the site. We will also do the same for the best article. This will make the members feel welcomed at wikiquote wich is important because thay are less apt to work hard if they do not feel welcomed. Once we get 5 members we will hold a election for president and vice president. Esperanza will not only help wikiquote but it will also give a good example to the Esperanza on wikipedia and if they take this ones example and make there Esperanza more like ours then that will improve wikiquote. Esperanza will keep problems like vandalism and edit wars from becoming major problems in wikiquote. To find out more ask me on my talk page. Thanks and god bless.--Sir James Paul 19:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This week we are not just voting on Esperanza but we are also voting on the future of Esperanza. If you vote not to make Esperanza a project on wikiquote you really will not see any changes right away but a few years down the rode we will have more members, that will mean that we will have more unfriendly users, more vandalism, and more inactive users. If you vote to make Esperanza a project at wikiquote we will have less problems in the future. You may not need a Esperanza now but if you vote to make it a project then our problems will not be as bad. If you want major problems then do not make this a project, but if you want the status quo then vote to make Esperanza a project.--Sir James Paul 19:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikiquote doesn't HAVE any vandalism or unfriendly users. And even if it does, Esperanza won't help against that. You said "All members of Esperanza agree to revert vandalism and keep it from becoming a problem, to be friendly to everyone, and to work hard." Everyone on Wikiquote does that anyway. Flooding Wikiquote with ubiquitous "e"s won't change a thing. Dev920 08:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

On wikiquote:Esperanza I am just the interm president, and if people vote to keep Esperanza I will have a election for president and vice president. I can not pick the vice president, the members have to vote for him, if I picked him then I would be breaking the charter. The mission of Esperanza is to make wikiquote more friendly, fight vandalism and keep it from becoming a problem, and make the number of articles grow and to make the quality of the articles better.--Sir James Paul 19:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * outside commentI agree with Sir James Paul when he says that this will keep wikiquote from having problems in the future. ~


 * This IP address is obviously Sir James Paul logged out. Only edits are nominating Sir James Paul for president, changing votes on this page to keep, and trying to extend the closing date. This is ridiculous. Archer7 22:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * FYI: apparently he's 13 Unbelievable 04:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikiquote administrators are neither collectively nor individually naifs and such a suggestion is therefore not one which has not already occurred to me. However, we do 'assume good faith'. If a stern warning stops a user disrupting, and friendly guidance helps them contribute constructively, then so much the better. We only block if we absolutely have to. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 23:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This comes frrom the wikipedia simple english Esperanza talk page.I think Esperanza contributes very much to the wikipedia."" The rest of the quote talks about barnstars and is irrevelent. This was by Life of Brian. --Sir James Paul 14:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You may need to reread that sentance.. it says "Wikipedia" not "Wikiquote".. Wikiquote is to small to maintain a project like Esperanza, there is also no need for an "Esperanza" here - It failed at Wikipedia and it will fail here - Where already seeing corruption with its 1 "member" declaring him self "President". They can barely maintain an esperanza at simple wikipedia.. what amkes you think you could maintain one here? People already revert vandalism so no silly project such as a CVU is required for that.. there is already a community here.. and people don't need "rewards, a.k.a barnstars" for there work to be recognized here. MatthewFenton 16:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And the user 'The life of brian' has actually said to you that he doesn't like the idea of Esperanza on Wikiquote. Archer7 20:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Kill with fire. This has no place here, and to be quite frank, is causing more turmoil than it could ever hope to solve. If you really want to make Wikiquote a better place, realize this isn't doing it. Essjay ( Talk  • Connect  ) 07:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.