Wikiquote talk:Templates/Archives/-2004

Meaning
I'm not sure the meaning part is such a good idea. With quotes that have explanatory background information, it'd be useful to mention that (historical context, etc.), but with most quotes I think it'd be amateurish and distracting. The whole beauty of quotes is that they express a meaning in a concise and appealing fashion; explaining them away would have the same detrimental effect as laboriously explaining a joke in detail. Not to mention that many quotes can be interpreted in numerous ways. --Delirium 03:20 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of "Meaning:", there could be "Notes:" which would include exactly that, and possibly a "see also" external link. -- Fagan


 * I agree with both of the above, and I think the Notes should be optional. There should always be a Source however, even if it is "Unknown" .Nanobug 17:01 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. --Camembert

"Meaning" was never meant to be mandatory, and was just the best word I could think of at the time to put down for what I wanted. The point of "Meaning" was to explain what the proverb means, why the person said what he did. For instance: Nero's dying words to a person who nothing about him would not mean anything, but if tehy are told why he said it they know abit more abotu him. -fonzy

Moving quotes from Wikipedia to Wikiquote
Based on an alternative presented by User:Jdcope created a page for "Erwin Griswold" I have recently been editing a lot of pages in Wikipedia and adding a link to Wikiquote (for those articles that we have already). I have also been removing the quotes in Wikipedia and adding them to Wikipedia. A couple of Wikipedia editors have put them back, saying that not all quotes should be moved. (See the talk page on Saddam Hussein for example.) What do you think? Should we generally leave quotes in Wikpedia, or remove or duplication by moving them here, or sometimes leave one quote in Wikipedia which seems to typically define the person? Nanobug 02:37 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Usage of source
"Source:" seems to be being used in two way, firstly as when the person actually said the quote and secondly as the location where the quote is repeated. Perhaps we should seperate these two, perhaps using "Occasion:" or somesuch for the first. --Imran 16:37 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Proposed new people templates
See Talk:Main Page on What wikiquote's aims should be. Here is a suggested way of implementing authenticity (these were recently implemented in template {and changed a little since then, so don't use the ones below} but many articles need to be changed to match latest template):

Quotes by people:

=== Full Name (year born – year died) === occupation

==== Verified ==== * "Quote1." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Source: source of quote. ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

* "Quote2." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Source: source of quote. ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

==== Attributed ==== * "Quote3." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Which looks like this:

Full Name (year born – year died)
occupation

Verified

 * "Quote1." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.


 * "Quote2." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Attributed

 * "Quote3." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Quotation marks
I don't really see the necessity of using quotation marks (") around the quotes. Everybody knows they're quotes, that's all that's here.  It looks like a cleaner layout to me without them. - Hephaestos 15:19 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree, they do seem superfluous. Anybody have a good reason for keeping them? Nanobug 18:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * See Quotation marks where we voted on this issue and decided to keep the quotation marks.

Transliteration
After reading Talk:Russian proverbs, and checking Wikipedia, it seems I was wrong in thinking that the meaning of the word transliteration was "literal translation", i.e. a translation into English that literally translated each word into English, rather than the overall meaning of the sentence which (not necessarily literal) translations often are. It is actually more a transcription of letters in one language into the "equivalent" letters of another language. (If I summarized the meaning incorrectly, please adjust accordingly.)

I included "(literal translation)" after the notes about transliteration in the template, which possibly confused others (and which I have just removed). I am not sure, but several of the "transliterations" on various pages appear to actually be literal translations instead.

So if there was both a literal translation and a more liberal translation, we could list the first one under "Translation:", and the second one as "Alternative translation:", or perhaps just "Alternative", or "Alternate"? e.g.

Verified

 * "Quote1." (year said)
 * Transliteration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Alternative: "Alternative Translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, clarification (where it is not clear), etc.

What do you think? Nanobug 01:53, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Default new page text
What do people think about making one of the templates (perhaps the person one) as the default text that appears when you start editing a new page ? --Imran 22:17, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Is that even possible? (Wikipedia doesn't seem to have default new page text, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.) If it is possible, then I agree, although it should have a note saying something like See Template for other pages such as literary works. Nanobug 02:16, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes it is possible. The text that used to appear in the textboxes if there had been no edit there before was "(There is currently no text in this page)". - fonzy

How about the following: Template/default --Imran

Theme
How about the Theme is organised into subthemes (see Death for an example of what I mean)? -- Gaurav 15:55, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Leave off "Note: "?
Can we leave off the "Note: " at the beginning of the note lines? I think it looks really ugly (Peer Gynt), and the fact that it's a note should be obvious. Paullusmagnus 19:01, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

List of people by occupations link in header
Can we not have the occupation linked to the appropriate section on the wikiquote list of people listed by occupation eg http://www.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_occupation, as well as or instead of a link to wikipedia definition of the occupation?

Steeev 17:07 19/11/2003


 * I think this is a good idea, as a better prompt for investigations of others in the categories, and of placing them within such listings. If there are no major problems with doing so, I support such a change. Kalki 17:28, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC) (It would require establishing a fairly standard list of occupations relatively soon, and it would probably be best to have a standard palette of templates for such links. I see it might be a bit more complicated, but would probably be more useful to most. People more familiar with the workings of the software should probably weigh in with their opinions on the matter before we go further with the idea.) -Kalki.

I have actually adopted this suggestion in an adjustment of the standard header style that I have used for a while now, and I will explain a few reasons why I think this form is preferable to the current official recommendation.

I use Mac OS X and have a utility called Typeit4me that when I type "wik" normally will paste a template that looks like this:

==• == ( - ) ''•
 * (I use "wikipedia:en:" rather than simply "en:" because I was informed some time ago that this will help to prevent possible future conflicts. I do not know if this is still the case, but have used the format since that time.)

From this I fill in the specific information about an individual. I find that this format allows for more extensive and convenient interlinking of the quote pages and the "List of occupations" page, allows the providing of a full birth and death date without overwhelming the main header line, and even allows for linking to specific sections of the occupation page if one adds an "#" and the header title from the List of people by occupation page, such as in this example using "List of people by occupation#Authors" to link directly to the section on Authors.

I have considered using a similar adaptation as a means of providing links from articles to sections of "Footnotes" or "Endnotes" or simply "Page notes" on the Talk pages of some articles, though I have yet to actually do so anywhere.

If no one has any objections or better suggestions, I might go ahead and change the recommended template for headers sometime in the next week or two. I invite your comments. ~ Kalki 19:10, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

See also?
Hooloovoo 11:42 2/1/2004

How about a 'See also:' when quotes by someone fall into a certain theme? There's a List of themes page already. Example from the William Gibson page I created.


 * "The NET is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it." (July 14, 1996)
 * Source: Name of article he wrote for 'New York Times Magazine'
 * See also: more quotes about the Internet

Original proverb
I am thinking there should be a:


 * Original:

... for proverbs since often they come from other languages. 65.92.241.69 19:35, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Quotes from literary works/Quotes by people: external wikibook link
Why Wikibooks - Name of Book or Play and not Wikisource - Name of Book or Play which seems much more appropriate for me because wikibooks only includes explained versions of books 80.143.246.58 15:37, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * That template was probably created before there was a "Wikisource" as it is a very recent addition to the Wikimedia projects. I agree Wikisource is a better place to link. —Kalki 18:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Quotes in the original language (not English) in italics?
I've read somewhere that this format should be applied and I think it is a good solution:

* "Beispiel Zitat" ** Translation: "example quote" ** Source: Books of examples


 * "Beispiel Zitat"
 * Translation: "example quote"
 * Source: Books of examples

Would it be okay if I add this to Template? 80.143.246.58 16:13, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * This seems to be the format that has been used by many already, and I am suprised it is not already listed. Go right ahead. —Kalki 17:53, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, Template mentions it under Notes:"Put non-English quotations in italics (but not the translations)." But an example won't hurt. 80.143.246.58 18:45, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dialog
As can be seen in some of the Television Shows pages, dialog can often be the source of interesting and/or humorous quotes. However, none of the Wikiquote guidelines seem to suggest formatting for dialog. In the pages I created (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Mystery Science Theater 3000, and Twin Peaks), I established some guidelines, but they're largely ad hoc and based primarily on my own opinions and Wiki experience, with nods to the existing Wikiquote guidelines where practical. I'd like to see some discussion from the Wikiquote community if possible. -- Jeff Q 08:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * By the way, I see the problem is not limited to TV shows. Just hopping through random pages, I found The Princess Bride (an excellent and quite quotable movie), whose page offers two variations on dialog, neither of which strikes me as tidy. The first:


 * Vizzini: "He didn't fall? Inconceivable!"
 * Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


 * is buried amidst a whole set of identically-formatted quotes, preventing identification of this as a two-line quote. The second, used three times, follows this format:


 * Vizzini: "No more rhymes now, and I mean it!" Fezzik: "Anybody want a peanut?"


 * This counts on the entire dialog excerpt being very short, and still doesn't look pretty. (Actually, this last excerpt is even more of a problem, as the three consecutive examples are each paired, rhyming quotes, so they should go together, should be separated from the remainder of the quotes, and should more clearly arrange the text visually to demonstrate the rhyme.) Comments? -- Jeff Q 08:33, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Another example I ran across, from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:


 * 3 questions of the Bridgekeeper
 * "What is your name?"
 * "Sir Lancelot of Camelot."
 * "What is your quest?"
 * "I seek the grail."
 * &hellip; etc. This is fairly tidy and follows some existing practice. It's also much simpler than the formatting I used for my TV dialog quotes. Some disadvantages: it doesn't show who said what, nor the opportunity to click on speaker or character links, and it only works with two alternating speakers at a time. -- Jeff Q 09:21, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

There are a few other formats that have also been used on dialogs, and we probably should try to decide on a standard recommendation or range of suggestions, but as with many other things I don't think its necessary to lay down too many rules. ~ Kalki 18:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Some examples and discussion at Talk:Television shows. -- Jeandré, 2004-06-16t00:37z

"Post comment" formatting
Using the Post comment link on this page creates a standard Wiki == HEADING TITLE == section (using pairs of equals [=] characters). Unfortunately, that clashes with all the existing headings on this page, which have a === HEADING TITLE === format (using two equals triplets). I would suggest that either the Post comment code be changed, or the existing headings be updated to reflect standard Wiki practice. Otherwise, the Table of Contents gets messed up. -- Jeff Q 08:11, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I am currently attempting to update the headings on this page as you have suggested.  ~ Kalki 18:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

"Sourced:" rather than "Verified" as a header
When Jdcope created a page for "Erwin Griswold" a few weeks ago, I was immediately pleased with his use of Sourced rather than Verified as at section title. At the Village pump, and now here, I am proposing that the section title "Sourced:" rather than Verified be used as more appropriate for most of the quotes for which we might have cited sources, but not necessarily direct confirmational access to original materials. I have always thought "Verified" was too strong a term to use for statements that might easily be many times removed from their original sources, and think it should be dropped in favor of the less assertive designation. If no one objects or has better ideas, I will change the templates to reflect this after a week or two. ~ Kalki 18:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Database vs. pages
Would it not be better to have a database input form for quotes, instead of the current pages set-up? The form could have fields like:
 * Quote in language if not [language of this wikiquote]
 * Transliteration:
 * Quote in [language of this wikiquote]
 * Alternative
 * Person who wrote or said it
 * Date
 * Source
 * Notes
 * List of categories

Eg:
 * Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
 * Thomas Jefferson
 * 1801-03-04
 * First inaugural address, Washington, D.C., USA
 * freedom; government; politics
 * 1801-03-04
 * First inaugural address, Washington, D.C., USA
 * freedom; government; politics
 * freedom; government; politics

The quote can then be included on the person's page, an all the pages listed in the categories field. You can edit a quote instead of a page, pages will be automatically updated. Pages will be like the Category pages, wiki editable. Quotes could be rendered in a user specified style. - Jeandré, 2004-06-18t21:17z