Wikiquote talk:Templates/Literary works

Death to quote marks!
I just gave this template a test run with one of my favourite books. Mostly it went well, but can we lose the quote marks around "Quote1", "Quote2"? The book had enough nested quoting without me adding another layer, and I saw it serving no purpose anyway. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 17:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. I think we should have a new vote on this subject, as the community is significantly larger than it was when this was last decided in favor of quote marks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Vote
Vote discussion and results moved to Quotation marks.

Source: and Translation:
Now that we've disposed of those nassssty quotation marks, there's another change in this template I'd like to see. The text "Source:" is or should be redundant. Not only should the citation always immediately follow the quotation, but it should be obvious that the text in that position is a citation since the form of a bibliographic reference is so stylized. Thus, "Source:" is redundant.

The template doesn't really address (and maybe shouldn't address) the distinction between quotations of a foreign-language source, translated by a Wikiquote editor, and quotations of a work published in translation, and quotations of an English-language work which quotes a translated foreign-language source. The third template presented is appropriate for the first case, but not for the other two. In the second case, a "people" or "book" article will often call out a canonical translation, which can be cited once and then referenced multiple times. E.g., the article on Plato might&mdash;but doesn't currently and should&mdash;cite a specific translation as follows:


 * Quotations from the Republic are taken from the Desmond Lee translation published by Penguin Books (1987 edition).

The third case seems more complicated but is actually much easier. First, we assume that the English-language author has provided sufficient reference information to correctly identify the original source; if not then it belongs under "Attributed" anyway. Then it's simply a matter of stitching the two citations together, in nearly the same way as one would for a double-quotation that doesn't involve translation:


 * "Foo bar baz quux."
 * "Corge Grault", Garply (Mumblefrotz, 1942), trans. John Doe, Dada of Tata Toto Titi (Foobar Press, 1969)

Editors should not feel obliged in either of these two cases to search out and/or attempt to transcribe the original-language text. For some subjects and source languages, though, having the original text may be helpful, and including it should not be discouraged. My preference would be to have the English-language text first, and then source language after (or better still, referenced from the source-language Wikiquote). However, in cases where there are multiple translations with significant differences in interpretation, it is customary to put the source language first. I really don't have a strong feeling on this.

(In most of the cases I have dealt with, the original text is not provided by the quoting author, which makes for quote a hoop for editors to jump through if we were to require it. So just leave it optional.)

One can obviously imagine even more baroque variations involving quotations of third-party translations of anonymous works, etc., but I suspect that once we get beyond three layers, the attribution is so tenuous that the quotation should just be labeled as "attributed"; this should be understood as an invitation for Wikiquotians with subject-matter knowledge to find a citation closer to the original source.


 * 121a0012 03:35, August 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * I suggest quotations translated by a wikiquote editor to have a source of the original, the quote in the original and the translation in a marked "Translation:" sub-bullet. A sourced translation should just contain the English quotation and the source. I am against an all-reaching "translations taken from", since different editors will have different translations.
 * Examples:


 * צנח לו זלזל על גדר וינום
 * Translitaration: Tzanakh lo zalzal 'al gader vayanom
 * Translation: A leaf fell on a fence and slept.
 * Collected works of Byalik, Published by blah blah blah
 * This shows translation by a wikiquote editor


 * A leaf fell on a fence and slept.
 * The Mega-Translation of Byalik, Published by blooh blooh blooh
 * This shows translation in source


 * This allows wikiquote editors to add *both* originals (and to translate), as well as adding as many translations as are deemed necessary to cover the possible range of translations. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 05:44, 13 September 2005 (UTC)